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Switch to Forum Live View A different take on the Alignment debate
7 months ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 10:17PM #71
hatta
Date Joined: Aug 23, 2007
Posts: 1,512
I think the problem is that 9 alignments aren't enough. Or rather each alignment is too broad. It's not enough to say you are Lawful Good, what specific traits connected to Law and Good do you personally possess? I'd personally ascribe 16 qualities to each of the axes (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Neutrality) and allow each player to pick 8 qualities that describe their character, with the rule that they must pick at least one trait from both their alignment axes.


EDIT: Sorry I didn't read the thread before posting, so you can feel free to ignore this. I won't be deleting it because I feel it's a good idea and want people to have it. 
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 10:37PM #72
NightsLastHero
Date Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Posts: 968
Its okay hatta the thread has been derailed into yet another alignment argument for several pages now.

For those who are just jumping into the middle of the thread the original intent is that the alignment debate isnt really about alignment. Deep down it is really about who is a Paladin and what is his role in the world. Does fluff define the class or is it just unimportant and taking up space? I.e. should the core assume reskinning classes is the way the game can be played and have no alignment restrictions or should the core assume that paladins are holy warriors who fight against evil and so have alignment restrictions?
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 10:39PM #73
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 7,990
I think it's madness to assume that the evil side wont produce anti-paladins whose abilities are dark reflections of the original so might as well save the space and make them the same class rather than reprinting what is essentially the same set of abilities 3+ times.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 10:52PM #74
hatta
Date Joined: Aug 23, 2007
Posts: 1,512

Nov 15, 2012 -- 10:39PM, rampant wrote:

I think it's madness to assume that the evil side wont produce anti-paladins whose abilities are dark reflections of the original so might as well save the space and make them the same class rather than reprinting what is essentially the same set of abilities 3+ times.



I agree.

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7 months ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 8:25AM #75
NightsLastHero
Date Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Posts: 968
I think the two classes should be seperate. I also dont think anti paladins should be direct copies of paladins with different names. Both classes should be unique
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 8:51AM #76
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 7,990
In 3e anti-pallies were better. In addition to the basic alignment swapped smiting and such the blackgaurd also got poison use (not just the option to use poison but special advantages when doing so), sneak attack, and if they had some ex-paladin levels lying around they got a bunch of other goodies.

I saw more than a few players work up to level 11 as pallies then go on a kitten stabbing spree and convert to 10th level ex-pally/ 1 st level blackgaurds to get the bonuses.

The problem with the multiple classes approach is that they are traditionally represented with very similar abilities to the point that a paladin and his blackgaurd are nearly indistinguishable at a distance. 

I think we need to take a page from the incarnum handbook here. Make paladins and anti-paladins the same class (call it crusader or avenger or whatever) but your alignment choice or virtue/vice picks or whatever makes certain abilities function differently (and not just affects alignment x different) but for example chaos could give a damage boost and the corresponding law ability instead gives an AC boost.

That reminds me, I don't remember who, when, or where but someone had this great idea that paladins should have a virtue and a vice and gain powers off of those but there would be consequences for using the vice recklessly. I dont' remember the details but it seemed a much more intelligent way to represent the paladin's life than relying on the alignment system.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:04AM #77
Zaramon
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2012
Posts: 1,426

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

Not by RAW.  By RAW, all killing is evil.




I've a strong feeling you're trying to poke holes in the system itself because you don't agree with it, and aren't being genuine. So I'm taking the gloves off. There is no point where RAW says all killing is evil. You're ripping parts of RAW out of context to serve your dirty agenda. I've given you a chance to stop that, but I'm done playing nice.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.

This is what you quoted. I don't see anywhere it says that all killing is evil. I will not tolerate being lied to. What I do see, is that killing is implicit in the evil alignment, meaning, not that all killing is evil, but to be evil aligned, there needs to be either the desire/willingness, to kill for, or the actual act of killing for, wait for it, "She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience." When it says, "implies" it does not mean, if you do these things, you're evil, that conditional "implies" means that these traits are required for evil. That is called reading in context. I wonder if you actually have somewhere in RAW where it says that all killing is evil. Because that is not what that says, despite your incredibly feeble attempt at misconstruction. Laughable that you think that just because the words killing and evil are mentioned in the same entry that means all killing must be evil. Hilarious.


Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

It says so under evil and nowhere else does it mention killing.  You can try to justify your position by looking at "opposing evil" and such as allowing you to kill evil, but that is only weak justification and not RAW.


 

Actually, it is RAW. Good implies opposing evil. So one of the traits of good, is that it opposes evil. Since it doesn't specify, anything that falls under opposing evil is fair game, so long as it doesn't leak into killing for sport, profit, or convenience. It's not justification, it's called reading.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

If you're going to look at RAW narrowly, you have to look at every piece of RAW narrowly.  You don't get to pick and choose what parts you are going to give lots of latitude to.




You're the one ripping RAW out of context, while I'm the one using it in context. You can't just misuse one bit of RAW and then ignore all the rest. I would say good try, but I've seen better.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

This is wrong.  It does not say under RAW that only the action is measured.




Since it doesn't mention intent in that passage, anything you bring into it about intent isn't supported. It only mentions the action there and doesn't give any treatment to intent at all. So anything you bring into it about intention, is speculation. It doesn't have to say that, because that is what it does there. You don't get to make an appeal to ignorance and go, "prove that isn't the case! Ha!"

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

Just because it mentions an action that cannot exist without intent,




Intent isn't mentioned there at all. You're bringing your own, unproven subjective value judgments into this.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

does not make that action all that is measured or intent secondary.  The action being measured cannot exist without intent, so intent is required.




People might be motivated to do the same things for different reasons. No, intent is not a requirement for action. What you're talking about is a decision, or a choice to exercise agency, which is trivially true. But your intentions do not have to be good for an act to be good. You can oppose evil, and so long as it isn't for sport, profit, or convenience, it's good. Even if you're just protecting your own hide.


Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

So what.  This sentence is meaningless.  If you try to act in order to protect someone and fail, you haven't done a good act, either.




But intent was still there. The only difference, is that action didn't accompany it. Since RAW gives treatment first and foremost to action, the intent wouldn't get you anything there. 

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

Again with the big so what.  Failure is failure.  That's it.  You cannot actually cast the evil spell successfully without intending to do so.




If you lose the spell, no action. No action, no value. If that spell was going to kill some innocent, and you lost the spell, you still had intent to cast and intent to kill, but all of the alignment descriptions in RAW give treatment to act first, with intent being subordinate.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

Hardly a day goes by without the PCs killing something.




I was addressing your faulty point of one act causing an alignment change. As for the argument about killing, see what I have said above.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

The bold is not RAW.  There are no conditionals.  The rest of the paragraph does not consist of conditionals.  Only a few examples.





Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.


Look at that, conditionals. See, your continually engaging in the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. You're assuming, without evidence, that killing for reasons other than the bolded, is a neutral evil act. I am saying, that any killing, not done for the bolded, is not a neutral evil act. My statement is a reliance on what we do know, on information we do have. Your statement is base speculation based on a misconstruction of one line in the RAW that you pulled out of context. Not even a line, but two words in the same sentence without regard to the contextual words in that sentence.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Maxperson wrote:

No.  That's not RAW.  I quoted the only part of RAW that mentions killing, and it completely lists all killing as evil.




As I proved, that is a blatant misconstruction. Personally, I think it's an intentional misconstruction on your part, for what reason you're doing that I can't possibly fathom, other than trying to desperately hang on to your point about RAW needing some interpretation otherwise it's unusable, or whatever it was that your original point was.

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7 months ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:09AM #78
Zaramon
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2012
Posts: 1,426

Nov 16, 2012 -- 8:25AM, NightsLastHero wrote:

I think the two classes should be seperate. I also dont think anti paladins should be direct copies of paladins with different names. Both classes should be unique




HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH! HALLE-LE HALLE-LE....*Cough* Ahem.... Anyway....Hi.

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7 months ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:37AM #79
Maxperson
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 22,472

Nov 16, 2012 -- 9:04AM, Zaramon wrote:

[

This is what you quoted. I don't see anywhere it says that all killing is evil.




Nowhere else does it say anything about killing.  That sentence does not qualify what type of killing is considered evil.  If we go only by what is written and cannot "interpret", then RAW says killing is evil.  If we CAN interpret, then it is clear that the actions are caused by intent.  Without the intent behind the actions, we cannot achieve alignments.  You cannot "oppose evil" without intending to oppose evil, etc.



Since it doesn't mention intent in that passage, anything you bring into it about intent isn't supported.




You don't have to mention intent when you cannot have the action WITHOUT intent.  It's like saying that your character dies because it doesn't mention your character breathing, so your character breathing isn't supported.

People might be motivated to do the same things for different reasons. No, intent is not a requirement for action.




But it IS required for alignment.  If you don't intend to kill for pleasure, then you cannot kill for pleasure.  Either intent is there or it isn't.  If it isn't there, then all killing is evil, because the only killing mentioned in alignment is evil.  Evil implies killing.  Good does not imply killing.  Neutrality does not imply killing.  Good does not imply killing evil.  The only killing is evil killing. 

That's why trying to go only by the words printed for aligmment is just plain stupid.  Alignment must be open to interpretation.  It's just utterly impossible for a paragraph or two to encompass what alignment is.


But intent was still there. The only difference, is that action didn't accompany it. Since RAW gives treatment first and foremost to action, the intent wouldn't get you anything there. 




First, yes it takes intent and action to achieve aligment.  That's a given.  You can't get alignment from action alone.  Intent defines the action in terms that allow for the action to be good, evil or indifferent.  Second, RAW does not give action priority.  That's just your misinterpretation of what is going on.  The designers just figured people would be smart enough to understand that intent drives those actions.


I was addressing your faulty point of one act causing an alignment change. As for the argument about killing, see what I have said above.




Nice Strawman.  I never said or even implied that one act caused an alignment change.

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.Look at that, conditionals. See, your continually engaging in the fallacy of appeal to ignorance.

You're assuming, without evidence, that killing for reasons other than the bolded, is a neutral evil act. I am saying, that any killing, not done for the bolded, is not a neutral evil act.




Yes.  And you are wrong.  You are taking a few examples of what constitutes the intent behind NE acts and trying to limit all NE killing to those few examples.  Nowhere does it say or even imply that those three intentions are the only three ways for killing to be NE.

My statement is a reliance on what we do know, on information we do have.




Heh.  You are relying on a small fraction of what alignment encompasses because they didn't have room to write an entire 10000 page book explaining it?  They even tell you that those alignment descriptions are broad and represent philosophies.  That's why two characters of an alignment can be very different from each other as noted below.  The alignments are not limited to just what you read.

It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.







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7 months ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 10:23AM #80
Ogiwan
Date Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 3,120
So, The Orcs are at war with The Good Folk. A group of orcs is filing down a forest trail. You, as the PCs, set up an ambush. All the necessary planning is there, and it goes off without a hitch. A dozen orcs are wiped out before they can even draw their swords. Their lives are snuffed out like a hurricane blows out a candle.

Is that murder? Is that evil? Do the PCs have to be distraught about it, or can they show joy at the fact that they just killed a bunch of sentients? 
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade."
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all."
-Kipling

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

Aug 16, 2012 -- 1:44AM, Undrhil wrote:

I am a hero, not a chump.

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