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7 months ago ::
Nov 28, 2012 - 7:03PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
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Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not. 4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.
So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.
-Polaris
If a player makes himself reliant on a set of online tools, knowing from the start (at least from the switch to online instead of downloaded tools) that the plug can be pulled at any time, and knowing that there is a perfectly viable alternative (books), then he has no one to blame but himself.
Fortunately, there are plenty of us that still get along just fine with pen and paper.
I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.
1. Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so). That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.
2. There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).
It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line. Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.
-Polaris
Most 4e players i know only have the core books, DMG1, PHB1 and rules compedium, some of them don't even have DMG1...all the rest of content they need is from DDI...(adventure tools, compedium, character builder)
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7 months ago ::
Nov 28, 2012 - 7:14PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not. 4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.
So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.
-Polaris
If a player makes himself reliant on a set of online tools, knowing from the start (at least from the switch to online instead of downloaded tools) that the plug can be pulled at any time, and knowing that there is a perfectly viable alternative (books), then he has no one to blame but himself.
Fortunately, there are plenty of us that still get along just fine with pen and paper.
I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.
1. Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so). That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.
2. There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).
It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line. Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.
-Polaris
Most 4e players i know only have the core books, DMG1, PHB1 and rules compedium, some of them don't even have DMG1...all the rest of content they need is from DDI...(adventure tools, compedium, character builder)
Indeed, and Wotc went out of it's way to encourage this practice by making it too inconvenient not to use the online material. My take at any rate.
-Polaris
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7 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 1:21PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2008
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I've played D&D 4th edition since its start in 2008. I've subscribed to DDI for most of its existence but I've never used the Character Builder. In fact, I haven't relied upon the online tools at all. I use the errata and pencil it into my books. I know that there are a lot of players that use the online tools heavily. I hope Wizards keeps them around after D&D 5th is released. If they are removed then that's on Wizards and not the individuals.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 6:04PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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Same thing tahs happened to every other edition. A couple of years after the end 4th ed will be restricted to a handful of holdouts and it will be difficult to find players for it.
I don't know. It seems that there was a pretty sizable 3e (or Pathfinder, I consider them to be pretty much the same anyway) following while 4e was out.
3rd ed didn't really end though as Pathfinder kept it going. Even without Pathfinder though a large chunk of gamers rejected 4th ed in 2008, PF didn't turn up unitl mid/late 2009 roughly IIRC.
The difference was I think WoTC bent over backwards from 2nd ed to 3.0 to keep the base happy. 4th ed seemed to go out of the way to alienate the 3rd ed crowd. You don't butcher to many sacred cows all at once.
A few years back these forums were crowing about 4th ed being so great due to its constant errata and being online enabled. Some of us here did point out the downside of it and the constant bloat but basically got yelled at. It was obvious this would happen although it happened a bit quicker than I thought (4th ed dying or whatever you want to call it).
Hopefully they will keep up the online content for the 4th ed players or fold it into the online support for D&D Next. Always wondered if DDI cannibalised sales of 4th ed books.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 6:06PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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I disagree. Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history. Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support. Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.
I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.
-Polaris
I disagree completely.
Did they strongly encourage use of their digital tools? Yes.
Did they then switch to online only? Yes
Did they do this so that they could switch off this edition at the proper time to push people to a new edition? Well there's no proof but quite possibly.
But did they make it impossible or nearly so to play the game without DDI? Not at all, and there are plenty of players out there not using DDI, myself included, that prove this.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 6:32PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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But did they make it impossible or nearly so to play the game without DDI? Not at all, and there are plenty of players out there not using DDI, myself included, that prove this.
Its not impossibly by any means. But its kinda hard to justify for a lot of players. Its like if everyone wants to go to the store and one guy has to walk and the others can drive in a car. The guy walking says "I really like the visceral experience of getting there on my own two legs" but most people will opt to spend just that extra little bit of money (or use their friend's car) to get to the store and back. Soon the drivers won't even consider walking a viable option unless forced.
Thats kinda how I feel about the online tools from 4e.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:05AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2012
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You know, when Wizards stops creating new content for 4e, I'd really like it if they released a downloadable, offline version of the character creator and other tools. I'd be perfectly willing to do a one-time payment for it, but I don't have the consistant income necessary for constant subscription fees.
I'd be even more interested if you could buy the tools separately, so I could pick and choose which ones I wanted.
Releasing Dragon issues as purchasable PDFs is also something I could like. Maybe if they came in sets of ten or so at a reasonable price.
What does everyone else think? Wishful thinking? Reasonable suggestion? Should I stop phrasing everything as a question?
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
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7 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 7:55AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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Yes?
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7 months ago ::
Dec 01, 2012 - 10:26PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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I'm just a bit annoyed at the "complete" versions of the magazines lately. Since they aren't releasing much in the way of new 4e content anymore, the adventures in Dungeon are all we get. However, for every previous article, I was able to download the PDF and file it away, so that I can have all my low level adventures in one folder, mid level in another, etc. I have a folder of monsters, one for class options, one for racial articles, etc. It's just easier to sort and find the info you're looking for. With the last few being single, giant PDFs, I'm much less likely to use them, since I can't separate one article from another.
I know that's pretty low on the totem pole of things to complain about these days, but I'll complain about it nonetheless. Course, it'll hardly matter if all 4e content gets pulled offline (as some fear), but it is what it is, I suppose.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 9:42AM
#50
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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See, while I agree that the errata pushes people toward the online rules, I really doubt that pulling the tools will force those people to drop 4e. I think a goodly number of them will just drop the errata.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool. | Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner | |
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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