|
6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 1:55PM
#51
|
Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2012
|
Yes?
Into mathematics, are you?
See, while I agree that the errata pushes people toward the online rules, I really doubt that pulling the tools will force those people to drop 4e. I think a goodly number of them will just drop the errata.
Or homebrew up their own fixes. I've seen quite a lot of homebrew fixes for 3e/3.5 tossed around over the years. Some better than others, though.
Gunmage, a homebrew arcane striker. (Heroic Tier playtest ready.) GDocs link. (More up to date.)
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 11:28AM
#52
|
Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2006
|
I've played D&D 4th edition since its start in 2008. I've subscribed to DDI for most of its existence but I've never used the Character Builder. In fact, I haven't relied upon the online tools at all. I use the errata and pencil it into my books. I know that there are a lot of players that use the online tools heavily. I hope Wizards keeps them around after D&D 5th is released. If they are removed then that's on Wizards and not the individuals.
I have created a 4th Edition Combat Rules pdf and one 4th Edition Skill Rules pdf, joining the material from PHB and the Rules Compendium, with the PHB look and feel. It only took me two weekends, and now our group have an easily searchable, bookmarked pdf with all errata in there (and hard to see that it is not the real stuff). If WotC don't want to sell you stuff, you can always create it yourself......
It wouldn't be to much work to create a Fighter compendium with all its material and errata included, etc. I would happily pay WotC if they provided that to me, but if they don't....well then I will do it for myself and my players.
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 12:06PM
#53
|
|
|
I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.
1. Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so). That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.
2. There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).
It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line. Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.
-Polaris
Nonetheless, it was known that 4e would end at some point. There was no way of knowing when it would come, but even if it was after 20 years, there's no way to be certain that you would like what replaced it.
Errata can be printed. It's organized by book so despite it covering many supplements, it's not hard to locate the pertinent material. I prefer to print it and keep it with the book. You could also have it in pdf form so that you can search it. As for large portions of the books being rewritten, often it is a minor change but if they change one word, they reprint the entire stat block.
Anyway, the point remains that there is a viable alternative. WotC can turn off DDI but they can't turn off the game. So whether or not you continue to play will be entirely up to you. If you choose not to, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't blame WotC for it.
I disagree. Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history. Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support. Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.
I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.
-Polaris
I disagree.
I can pull all the data out of the Compendium and display it in my own tool with no big problem. With offline CB and MB with the patches I have everything WotC sells for free. Maybe it won't be quite as slick, but it will work.
I already have the RPGTable site continuing to run the VTT as well. They support many different games. It wouldn't surprise me if they also supported other aspects of 4e (actually they have ALL the 4e monsters in the VTT, not the ideal interface, but actually not that bad either). You have to buy them, but its a cheap one-time thing. In any case I only really need it there if I play using VTT, which is nice and I do play with it some, but I could always use Maptool instead.
I've played with a number of people who have no DDI access and play 4e fine. Maybe they aren't going to track down every obscure feat or whatever, but they certainly COULD.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 12:10PM
#54
|
|
|
I disagree. Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history. Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support. Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.
I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.
-Polaris
I disagree completely.
Did they strongly encourage use of their digital tools? Yes.
Did they then switch to online only? Yes
Did they do this so that they could switch off this edition at the proper time to push people to a new edition? Well there's no proof but quite possibly.
But did they make it impossible or nearly so to play the game without DDI? Not at all, and there are plenty of players out there not using DDI, myself included, that prove this.
I see no evidence that 4e is any harder to play offline than 3e was, which never had much in the way of tools. Both games have a massive number of books and supplements, magazine articles, etc from which you can source PC options, monsters, etc. This isn't much different from late 2e either, or even 1e. We had no issues with all that in any of those editions. There's no reason we will in 4e either.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 12:12PM
#55
|
|
|
See, while I agree that the errata pushes people toward the online rules, I really doubt that pulling the tools will force those people to drop 4e. I think a goodly number of them will just drop the errata.
Meh, most of the errata isn't that big a deal anyway. RC has most of the rules errata, and you can just download the master 4e errata document for the rest. Slap it on your iPad and just refer to it when you make a PC.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 2:13PM
#56
|
Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
|
Myrhdraak, as sad as it is, I think you're taking the right tactic. I've always downloaded PDFs of each article as they've come out... but it's sounding like it's time to build offline 4e databases to hold all the info in the likely eventuality that they take it offline on the Wizards site.
While I know lots of folks play without errata, the simple ease of having everything, including all book options, errata, and Dragon article content at my fingertips is not something I'd like to lose. Maybe some intrepid soul will figure out a way to make it usable with the old (offline) character builder format. If not, there's going to be a lot of us with a lot of home-brewed databases & spreadsheets.
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 9:11PM
#57
|
|
|
I see no evidence that 4e is any harder to play offline than 3e was, which never had much in the way of tools. Both games have a massive number of books and supplements, magazine articles, etc from which you can source PC options, monsters, etc. This isn't much different from late 2e either, or even 1e. We had no issues with all that in any of those editions. There's no reason we will in 4e either.
I've played both extensively. 3e was fine to play by hand. 4e is much better with machine help. A prime reason is that most 3e classes were just "I attack." while 4e is "I use one of 10 powers this round."
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 04, 2012 - 3:35PM
#58
|
|
|
Don't need a machine. 3x5 notecards with the important info for each power. Works great. Just have to update them when you level, and keep track of which of your magic items and/or feats work with ___ and what effect they have.
Not that hard.
Colors
Show
Bow down, my subjects, for I am your master! Yesss.....
Show
For some reason, none of my friends were surprised by this...
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 04, 2012 - 7:24PM
#59
|
|
|
I've played D&D 4th edition since its start in 2008. I've subscribed to DDI for most of its existence but I've never used the Character Builder. In fact, I haven't relied upon the online tools at all. I use the errata and pencil it into my books. I know that there are a lot of players that use the online tools heavily. I hope Wizards keeps them around after D&D 5th is released. If they are removed then that's on Wizards and not the individuals.
I have created a 4th Edition Combat Rules pdf and one 4th Edition Skill Rules pdf, joining the material from PHB and the Rules Compendium, with the PHB look and feel. It only took me two weekends, and now our group have an easily searchable, bookmarked pdf with all errata in there (and hard to see that it is not the real stuff). If WotC don't want to sell you stuff, you can always create it yourself......
It wouldn't be to much work to create a Fighter compendium with all its material and errata included, etc. I would happily pay WotC if they provided that to me, but if they don't....well then I will do it for myself and my players.
Great minds think alike; I've done this, and more. My group doesn't even carry books anymore; we just bring our laptops or print out what we need for chargen and play.
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 05, 2012 - 8:43PM
#60
|
|
|
I see no evidence that 4e is any harder to play offline than 3e was, which never had much in the way of tools. Both games have a massive number of books and supplements, magazine articles, etc from which you can source PC options, monsters, etc. This isn't much different from late 2e either, or even 1e. We had no issues with all that in any of those editions. There's no reason we will in 4e either.
I've played both extensively. 3e was fine to play by hand. 4e is much better with machine help. A prime reason is that most 3e classes were just "I attack." while 4e is "I use one of 10 powers this round."
Eh, I did up a character by hand a few weeks ago and played it. Didn't have any real issues. Seemed no harder than back in the 2e days. Heck, I even used a theme and some power book options. Of course I know the system fairly well. I'm sure there are 100's of options that I could have fiddled with in CB for hours if I had felt like it. Still, the character was exactly what I wanted and took 30 minutes to build. I could probably have done it in 10 in a pinch.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
|
|
|
