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Let me preface by saying I'm fairly new to the D&D experience having never played before 4E. I purchased the PHB1, Monster Manual and  DMG not knowing if I would ever be able to use them. My gaming group is made up entirely of people new to D&D (you're welcome WOTC). 

Now that I know everyone is enjoying it and we will likely continue, I've been checking out some of the published campaigns, additional monster manuals, dugeon tiles and even adventurers vault books to add to my collection of resources. It seems like these are hard to find. Most book stores I have been to do not carry a great deal of D&D material. My question is, are 4E books and materials becoming more scarce as everyone moves to the new edition? Are things like the Adventurer's vault going to be even harder to find in future?
 

Short answer is yes, older editions books will become harder to find as stores begin stocking up on D&D Next's manuals. If I may suggest, use online stores: Amazon has everything you may need.

Books will be really easy to find at first, as those who are willing to dump their old stuff for new do so; then it will get gradually harder.

In my home, we will play 4e for the foreseeable future. And if Next manages to produce a finished product that is radically different from my early playtest experiences, then I will give it a try as well.

Nov 14, 2012 -- 5:50AM, Mordor11 wrote:

Short answer is yes, older editions books will become harder to find as stores begin stocking up on D&D Next's manuals. If I may suggest, use online stores: Amazon has everything you may need.

Try Ebay as well, might be cheaper.

between amazon and ebay you can find nearly all of the books for at least half off. that said, the adventurers vault 1 is probably holding its value more than any other early 4e book; still you can find it for less than cover price.

Thanks guys. We will be playing 4E for the forseeable future as well but not because we are unhappy with Next. The learning curve for a bunch of newbies has been a little steep and we've been progressing very slowly so I want to stay with 4E as long as possible since everyone is finally getting the hang of it. I just dont want to be unable to find the stuff I may need in future.


 

If you have any gaming stores within a reasonable driving distance from you, then I would say that now is the time to strike with 4e books. People are dumping them and there is an abundance of them used. As suggested above, Amazon is a great place to look; in fact many of the books in my 4e collection were purchased through amazon for $15 or less. I just saw two copies of Adventurer's Vault at my FLGS recently for $15 each. Probably should've snatched them up but Im in a purging state of mind right now. Last year, you couldn't find a copy of the AV anywhere for less that $40-50 used. Saw one listed at $150 (though I doubt it sold for that).

My two copper.

4e is gonna be like 3.5 after it's gone. Very expensive and hard to find. I bet you anything Core Book prices will jump to near retail value if not more. Keep your 4e books and get as many as you can.

I expect that the people who like 4e will hold onto their books. The ones that don't like it will probably try to recoup the cost of their 5e books by selling their 4e.

I suggest that if you do not have one already, that you start up ebay and paypal accounts, then go shopping for those cheap auctions. Don't worry about bidding on multiple copies of the same item. If you are lucky and win both (or however many) one of your friends can buy it from you.
How much the books go for depends on how many people sell them.

A couple years ago I sold off a friend's collection of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, and 4e books. Some things went for 2-5 bucks. Some went for 40-80. All on a case by case basis.
If you are up for the challenge, I would suggest buying a copy of Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, an ancient classic 1st ed module. With very little work, it can be converted to 4e, and is a pretty solid story.

Wotc will actually break into your home and destroy all your 4e books.

It's already happened to half the playtesters for 5e.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Sanctuarykitten wrote:

Wotc will actually break into your home and destroy all your 4e books.

It's already happened to half the playtesters for 5e.

No it's their playtest packets they keep destroying and replacing with junk.

We are blessed with multiple FLGSes (saw it less of a blessing when, six months after we opened the second FLGS in town, three more opened in rapid succession), and one of them is co-owned by the guy who taught us D&D 4e and he has zero interest in DDN so they stay well stocked in D&D 4e books – and they sell everything for 10% off MSRP!

Well while amazon has lots of 4 e books. They are not cheaper.  Look at adventures vault one
 www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_16?url...  This link shows it selling for 89.99. That waaaaaaymore money.  It like tryi g to find 2 nd edition stuff. It out there but you are gonna pay a premium for it
 

well, yeah, some of those amazon sellers are very inflated and unrealistic.
Other books are much cheaper.
AV1 is out-of-print, and has been for several months (Yeah. I know. What was the thinking there?). That's why. go Ebay--I got mine (slightly used) for less than cover price. 

I've also had incredible luck with Half Price Books.  The company has locations in a good portion of the country, and I'm sure there are local equivalents elsewhere.  I've gotten quite a few 4th books there, and they have shelves full of 3.5, 3, and 2nd Edition goodies too.  A lot of the fluff from 2nd and 3rd Editions are excellent, and can easily work for 4th, especially if you're playing in curated worlds like Eberron, Forgotten Realms or Dark Sun.

All depends on what people bring in, I've picked up a load of old Shadowrun/Earthdawn books too, mostly because the fluff there is excellent.  The most populous stuff on the shelves seems to be flavors of GURPS, followed by 2nd Edition.  Sometimes you also find gems, like a 2nd edition printing of "Chainmail" for $3.  Yoink!

Nov 16, 2012 -- 3:36PM, brap8 wrote:

Well while amazon has lots of 4 e books. They are not cheaper.  Look at adventures vault one
 www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_16?url...  This link shows it selling for 89.99. That waaaaaaymore money.  It like tryi g to find 2 nd edition stuff. It out there but you are gonna pay a premium for it
 

Half my 4e collection came from amazon for $15 or less. I've gotten tons of 2e stuff there too for next to nothing. Perhaps it's a right time right place thing, but my experiences are vastly different from yours.

I want to buy more 4E books... but... I have no interest in the paper they are printed on.

In fact I want to get rid of the paper books I have. Just as soon as I can get LEGAL ebooks, preferably ones that aren't made by scanning the paper books.

Nov 17, 2012 -- 7:54AM, mboss77 wrote:

Nov 16, 2012 -- 3:36PM, brap8 wrote:

Well while amazon has lots of 4 e books. They are not cheaper.  Look at adventures vault one
 www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_16?url...  This link shows it selling for 89.99. That waaaaaaymore money.  It like tryi g to find 2 nd edition stuff. It out there but you are gonna pay a premium for it
 

Half my 4e collection came from amazon for $15 or less. I've gotten tons of 2e stuff there too for next to nothing. Perhaps it's a right time right place thing, but my experiences are vastly different from yours.

same.

Although I'd been playing 4e for nearly 4 years, I didn't venture into DMing it until the last couple of years. The cover prices of these books I found to be wildly overpriced (sorry WoTC). So, as someone above me suggested first, I got myself eBay and PayPal accounts. My book collection skyrocketed from 1 or 2 to nearly every 4e book available, in one year! I got some incredible, fantastic deals buying 4e books on eBay. There are a lot of disgruntled geeks out there and you can turn their butthurt into cheap gaming materials! Be patient and learn the tricks of eBay and you'll save yourself (no lie), thousands of dollars.

Also, I gotta say I'm with you on D&D Next. The playtest is very nice and all, but until I see the published, finished game books, I'll be playing 4e. Do yourself a favor and get a DDI account, if you don't already have one. Download every available article and adventure from Dragon and Dungeon and you are basically good to go for multiple years.

Nov 14, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Hexgoblin wrote:

Let me preface by saying I'm fairly new to the D&D experience having never played before 4E. I purchased the PHB1, Monster Manual and  DMG not knowing if I would ever be able to use them. My gaming group is made up entirely of people new to D&D (you're welcome WOTC). 

Now that I know everyone is enjoying it and we will likely continue, I've been checking out some of the published campaigns, additional monster manuals, dugeon tiles and even adventurers vault books to add to my collection of resources. It seems like these are hard to find. Most book stores I have been to do not carry a great deal of D&D material. My question is, are 4E books and materials becoming more scarce as everyone moves to the new edition? Are things like the Adventurer's vault going to be even harder to find in future?
 

Hexgoblin,

I've played D&D a few times, but it wasn't until 4th edition that I got into "seriously" playing D&D. With the new edition on the horizon, I have likewise notice 4E books getting harder and harder to find. Knowing that 4E is going to be going by the wayside (by and large), I have been going to Amazon and buying up what I can.

If you and your group are enjoying 4E as much as I am, I would recommend that you try that route. Amazon is not only selling the books cheaper than suggested retail, but various sellers on Amazon are also selling 4E books (some new and some slightly used) even cheaper than what Amazon is offering the books for.

It is unfortunate, but I think that we are seeing 4E drawing to a close in light of D&D Next.

Nov 16, 2012 -- 5:00PM, WhisperMagellan wrote:

well, yeah, some of those amazon sellers are very inflated and unrealistic.
Other books are much cheaper.
AV1 is out-of-print, and has been for several months (Yeah. I know. What was the thinking there?). That's why. go Ebay--I got mine (slightly used) for less than cover price. 

The thing with Amazon is all that stuff is 3rd party sellers. You have to just keep going back every day and looking. A book could be $89 one day and $12 the next day in better condition. 4e books are almost all technically 'out of print' at this point since they certainly aren't apparently planning on putting them out again, so some of the more popular ones or ones that had short print runs can have volatile prices. AV1 is the most extreme as it was printed in 2008 and I assume never reprinted at all. Being the first supplement (and a pretty important one) it probably sold fairly well.

Honestly I don't care what happens to the books but... if they mess with my DnD Insider account and replace the Charbuilder and Compendium with DnD Next crap I'm going to be a very sad panda.

I've seen some pretty big lots of 4e selling on ebay over the last few months (I guess the D&D Next announcement had an effect?). Sometimes you can buy an entire lot of books for less than the price of buying the books individually. Sure you'll end up with some extra books you don't need, but you can always give them away to friends. I got a lot of 3.5 books this way when 4e came out.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:49PM, Matyr wrote:

Honestly I don't care what happens to the books but... if they mess with my DnD Insider account and replace the Charbuilder and Compendium with DnD Next crap I'm going to be a very sad panda.

That's the day I cancel my subscription. What I'm paying for is the character builder and maintaining my character files online. That goes, so do I.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Sanctuarykitten wrote:

Wotc will actually break into your home and destroy all your 4e books.

It's already happened to half the playtesters for 5e.

Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not.  4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.

So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.

-Polaris

Nov 23, 2012 -- 12:34AM, Polaris wrote:

Nov 15, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Sanctuarykitten wrote:

Wotc will actually break into your home and destroy all your 4e books.

It's already happened to half the playtesters for 5e.

Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not.  4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.

So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.

-Polaris

Yeah, even more because alot of players only have the core books and the rest they get it out of compedium, adventure tools and character build (the need to continue to buy books for content is greatly diminished for them, is the closest thing to digital distribution auto-update with free DLC on D&D)

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:49PM, Matyr wrote:

Honestly I don't care what happens to the books but... if they mess with my DnD Insider account and replace the Charbuilder and Compendium with DnD Next crap I'm going to be a very sad panda.

This, a thousand times this.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:49PM, Matyr wrote:

Honestly I don't care what happens to the books but... if they mess with my DnD Insider account and replace the Charbuilder and Compendium with DnD Next crap I'm going to be a very sad panda.

Which is why I am happy I kept my off line version and know basic editing to add the things Wizards refused to add. Sure it takes some work but hey it means I will be able to play 4e forever and introduce my own homebrew as well.

Just like what others say, I fully expect WotC to pull the plug on the Online 4E Tools and when that comes I'm just leaving it all behind.

I'm actually in the process of putting together a Game that should be able to carry forward what we know today as 4E.
There's not much point though, in trying to capture EVERYTHING that has been published.
Some material is simply redundant and contributes to bloat. Others are simply so suboptimal offering the Option does not add value. 

My final "Compilation" will probably be something like this
- Basic Rules for Playing the Game
- 6-7 Core Classes 
- Selection of Generally Useful Feats. Reduction of Feat Tax. 
- Role-Specific Rules, for mixing / switching Roles around
- Selection of Generally Useful Items, fewer of them. 
- New Core Classes that have very different Mechanics from 4E. eg. Vancian Systems
- A Few Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies

Along with following, with an intention to maintain Balance in the Game
- Quickplay Options for Players New to the Game
- Guidelines for Creating more Classes and Powers
- Guidelines for Creating Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies
- Guidelines for Creating more Item Properties and balancing Evolving Items
- Guidelines for Creating Feats
- Guidelines for Encounter and Monster Generation 

I've been playtesting some Elements of these in my Campaign, using 4E encounters, and it works pretty well.
The Characters do not outperform 4E Characters either, but are relatively easier to Optimise because the Feat Selection is much more easier to work with and have more blanket boosts to Character performance.
Assuming the Party plays sensibly, Combat typically ends in about 5-7 rounds.

I'm going to be moving to from an annual subscription to something more frequent when my sub runs out in late December. If/when they pull the plug on 4E tools, unless I've completed the home campaign I'm running through 30, and the two LFR EPIC runs that I'm involved in (one as DM and one as player), I won't be resubscribing and will be switching to board games.

Board games that are in no way produced by WotC or Hasbro, that is.

Nov 26, 2012 -- 9:21AM, JRedGiant1 wrote:

Board games that are in no way produced by WotC or Hasbro, that is.

Credit where credit is due, Lord of Waterdeep is a fantastic boardgame.

I think Ravenloft is pretty awesome too

Nov 23, 2012 -- 8:00AM, Cyvaris wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:49PM, Matyr wrote:

Honestly I don't care what happens to the books but... if they mess with my DnD Insider account and replace the Charbuilder and Compendium with DnD Next crap I'm going to be a very sad panda.

Which is why I am happy I kept my off line version and know basic editing to add the things Wizards refused to add. Sure it takes some work but hey it means I will be able to play 4e forever and introduce my own homebrew as well.

Yup this exactly.

 Same thing tahs happened to every other edition. A couple of years after the end 4th ed will be restricted to a handful of holdouts and it will be difficult to find players for it.

I dunno Zardnaar.  I get the feeling that if Next ends up getting the product shelved then Pathfinder and 4e are going to be the systems of choice amongst folks who still want to play D&D.

Nov 23, 2012 -- 12:34AM, Polaris wrote:

Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not.  4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.

So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.

-Polaris

If a player makes himself reliant on a set of online tools, knowing from the start (at least from the switch to online instead of downloaded tools) that the plug can be pulled at any time, and knowing that there is a perfectly viable alternative (books), then he has no one to blame but himself.

Fortunately, there are plenty of us that still get along just fine with pen and paper.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 2:10PM, Zardnaar wrote:

 Same thing tahs happened to every other edition. A couple of years after the end 4th ed will be restricted to a handful of holdouts and it will be difficult to find players for it.

I don't know. It seems that there was a pretty sizable 3e (or Pathfinder, I consider them to be pretty much the same anyway) following while 4e was out.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:53PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 23, 2012 -- 12:34AM, Polaris wrote:

Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not.  4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.

So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.

-Polaris

If a player makes himself reliant on a set of online tools, knowing from the start (at least from the switch to online instead of downloaded tools) that the plug can be pulled at any time, and knowing that there is a perfectly viable alternative (books), then he has no one to blame but himself.

Fortunately, there are plenty of us that still get along just fine with pen and paper.

I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.

1.  Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so).  That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.

2.  There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).

It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line.  Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.

-Polaris

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:57PM, Polaris wrote:

I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.

1.  Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so).  That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.

2.  There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).

It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line.  Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.

-Polaris

Nonetheless, it was known that 4e would end at some point. There was no way of knowing when it would come, but even if it was after 20 years, there's no way to be certain that you would like what replaced it.

Errata can be printed. It's organized by book so despite it covering many supplements, it's not hard to locate the pertinent material. I prefer to print it and keep it with the book. You could also have it in pdf form so that you can search it. As for large portions of the books being rewritten, often it is a minor change but if they change one word, they reprint the entire stat block.

Anyway, the point remains that there is a viable alternative. WotC can turn off DDI but they can't turn off the game. So whether or not you continue to play will be entirely up to you. If you choose not to, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't blame WotC for it.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 6:33PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:57PM, Polaris wrote:

I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.

1.  Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so).  That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.

2.  There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).

It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line.  Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.

-Polaris

Nonetheless, it was known that 4e would end at some point. There was no way of knowing when it would come, but even if it was after 20 years, there's no way to be certain that you would like what replaced it.

Errata can be printed. It's organized by book so despite it covering many supplements, it's not hard to locate the pertinent material. I prefer to print it and keep it with the book. You could also have it in pdf form so that you can search it. As for large portions of the books being rewritten, often it is a minor change but if they change one word, they reprint the entire stat block.

Anyway, the point remains that there is a viable alternative. WotC can turn off DDI but they can't turn off the game. So whether or not you continue to play will be entirely up to you. If you choose not to, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't blame WotC for it.

I disagree.  Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history.  Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support.  Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.

I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.

-Polaris 

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:57PM, Polaris wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:53PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 23, 2012 -- 12:34AM, Polaris wrote:

Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not.  4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.

So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.

-Polaris

If a player makes himself reliant on a set of online tools, knowing from the start (at least from the switch to online instead of downloaded tools) that the plug can be pulled at any time, and knowing that there is a perfectly viable alternative (books), then he has no one to blame but himself.

Fortunately, there are plenty of us that still get along just fine with pen and paper.

I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.

1.  Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so).  That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.

2.  There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).

It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line.  Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.

-Polaris

Most 4e players i know only have the core books, DMG1, PHB1 and rules compedium, some of them don't even have DMG1...all the rest of content they need is from DDI...(adventure tools, compedium, character builder)

Nov 28, 2012 -- 7:03PM, mexrage wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:57PM, Polaris wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:53PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 23, 2012 -- 12:34AM, Polaris wrote:

Actually while I know this was intended to be a joke, perhaps for the first time in RPG history, it's really not.  4E has gotten to the point where a lot of 4E players need and depend on the online tools (esp Char Builder) to actually play the game because the errata is so bloated and scattered, and the various class abilities and powers are scattered over dozens of "core" books and magazines.

So if when Wotc pulls the plug on 4E character support, they really will be (in effect) breaking into a large section of the 4E fanbase and destroying their 4e books.

-Polaris

If a player makes himself reliant on a set of online tools, knowing from the start (at least from the switch to online instead of downloaded tools) that the plug can be pulled at any time, and knowing that there is a perfectly viable alternative (books), then he has no one to blame but himself.

Fortunately, there are plenty of us that still get along just fine with pen and paper.

I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.

1.  Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so).  That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.

2.  There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).

It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line.  Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.

-Polaris

Most 4e players i know only have the core books, DMG1, PHB1 and rules compedium, some of them don't even have DMG1...all the rest of content they need is from DDI...(adventure tools, compedium, character builder)

Indeed, and Wotc went out of it's way to encourage this practice by making it too inconvenient not to use the online material.  My take at any rate.

-Polaris

I've played D&D 4th edition since its start in 2008. I've subscribed to DDI for most of its existence but I've never used the Character Builder. In fact, I haven't relied upon the online tools at all. I use the errata and pencil it into my books. I know that there are a lot of players that use the online tools heavily. I hope Wizards keeps them around after D&D 5th is released. If they are removed then that's on Wizards and not the individuals.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:54PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 2:10PM, Zardnaar wrote:

 Same thing tahs happened to every other edition. A couple of years after the end 4th ed will be restricted to a handful of holdouts and it will be difficult to find players for it.

I don't know. It seems that there was a pretty sizable 3e (or Pathfinder, I consider them to be pretty much the same anyway) following while 4e was out.

 3rd ed didn't really end though as Pathfinder kept it going. Even without Pathfinder though a large chunk of gamers rejected 4th ed in 2008, PF didn't turn up unitl mid/late 2009 roughly IIRC.

 The difference was I think WoTC bent over backwards from 2nd ed to 3.0 to keep the base happy. 4th ed seemed to go out of the way to alienate the 3rd ed crowd. You don't butcher to many sacred cows all at once.

 A few years back these forums were crowing about 4th ed being so great due to its constant errata and being online enabled. Some of us here did point out the downside of it and the constant bloat but basically got yelled at. It was obvious this would happen although it happened a bit quicker than I thought (4th ed dying or whatever you want to call it).

 Hopefully they will keep up the online content for the 4th ed players or fold it into the online support for D&D Next. Always wondered if DDI cannibalised sales of 4th ed books.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 6:55PM, Polaris wrote:

I disagree.  Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history.  Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support.  Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.

I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.

-Polaris 

I disagree completely.

Did they strongly encourage use of their digital tools? Yes.

Did they then switch to online only? Yes

Did they do this so that they could switch off this edition at the proper time to push people to a new edition? Well there's no proof but quite possibly.

But did they make it impossible or nearly so to play the game without DDI? Not at all, and there are plenty of players out there not using DDI, myself included, that prove this.

But did they make it impossible or nearly so to play the game without DDI? Not at all, and there are plenty of players out there not using DDI, myself included, that prove this.

Its not impossibly by any means.  But its kinda hard to justify for a lot of players.  Its like if everyone wants to go to the store and one guy has to walk and the others can drive in a car.  The guy walking says "I really like the visceral experience of getting there on my own two legs" but most people will opt to spend just that extra little bit of money (or use their friend's car) to get to the store and back.  Soon the drivers won't even consider walking a viable option unless forced.

Thats kinda how I feel about the online tools from 4e. 

You know, when Wizards stops creating new content for 4e, I'd really like it if they released a downloadable, offline version of the character creator and other tools. I'd be perfectly willing to do a one-time payment for it, but I don't have the consistant income necessary for constant subscription fees.

I'd be even more interested if you could buy the tools separately, so I could pick and choose which ones I wanted.

Releasing Dragon issues as purchasable PDFs is also something I could like. Maybe if they came in sets of ten or so at a reasonable price.

What does everyone else think? Wishful thinking? Reasonable suggestion? Should I stop phrasing everything as a question?

Yes?

I'm just a bit annoyed at the "complete" versions of the magazines lately.  Since they aren't releasing much in the way of new 4e content anymore, the adventures in Dungeon are all we get.  However, for every previous article, I was able to download the PDF and file it away, so that I can have all my low level adventures in one folder, mid level in another, etc.  I have a folder of monsters, one for class options, one for racial articles, etc.  It's just easier to sort and find the info you're looking for.  With the last few being single, giant PDFs, I'm much less likely to use them, since I can't separate one article from another.  

I know that's pretty low on the totem pole of things to complain about these days, but I'll complain about it nonetheless.  Course, it'll hardly matter if all 4e content gets pulled offline (as some fear), but it is what it is, I suppose. 

See, while I agree that the errata pushes people toward the online rules, I really doubt that pulling the tools will force those people to drop 4e.  I think a goodly number of them will just drop the errata.  

Nov 30, 2012 -- 7:55AM, Fardiz wrote:

Yes?

Into mathematics, are you?

See, while I agree that the errata pushes people toward the online rules, I really doubt that pulling the tools will force those people to drop 4e.  I think a goodly number of them will just drop the errata.

Or homebrew up their own fixes. I've seen quite a lot of homebrew fixes for 3e/3.5 tossed around over the years. Some better than others, though.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 1:21PM, hunterian7 wrote:

I've played D&D 4th edition since its start in 2008. I've subscribed to DDI for most of its existence but I've never used the Character Builder. In fact, I haven't relied upon the online tools at all. I use the errata and pencil it into my books. I know that there are a lot of players that use the online tools heavily. I hope Wizards keeps them around after D&D 5th is released. If they are removed then that's on Wizards and not the individuals.

I have created a 4th Edition Combat Rules pdf and one 4th Edition Skill Rules pdf, joining the material from PHB and the Rules Compendium, with the PHB look and feel. It only took me two weekends, and now our group have an easily searchable, bookmarked pdf with all errata in there (and hard to see that it is not the real stuff). If WotC don't want to sell you stuff, you can always create it yourself......

It wouldn't be to much work to create a Fighter compendium with all its material and errata included, etc. I would happily pay WotC if they provided that to me, but if they don't....well then I will do  it for myself and my players.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 6:55PM, Polaris wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 6:33PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 5:57PM, Polaris wrote:

I think that's a little disengenous for a couple of reasons.

1.  Until this last year there was no reason to think that 4E was going to last any less time than any other edition (i.e 8 years or so).  That was Wotc's own projection btw and not mine.

2.  There are over 100 pages of errata in 4E many of which almost completely rewrite entire sections of 'core' books, and because 'everything is core' critical information is scattered over many books (somtimes as many as a dozen or more).

It's this last explosion of information that very often makes it nearly impossible to make a character without some sort of computer support, and the only current support is on line.  Likewise the huge amounts of errata make it difficult to trust any rules sort other than the most current compilation......which is entirely online.

-Polaris

Nonetheless, it was known that 4e would end at some point. There was no way of knowing when it would come, but even if it was after 20 years, there's no way to be certain that you would like what replaced it.

Errata can be printed. It's organized by book so despite it covering many supplements, it's not hard to locate the pertinent material. I prefer to print it and keep it with the book. You could also have it in pdf form so that you can search it. As for large portions of the books being rewritten, often it is a minor change but if they change one word, they reprint the entire stat block.

Anyway, the point remains that there is a viable alternative. WotC can turn off DDI but they can't turn off the game. So whether or not you continue to play will be entirely up to you. If you choose not to, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't blame WotC for it.

I disagree.  Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history.  Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support.  Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.

I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.

-Polaris 

I disagree.

I can pull all the data out of the Compendium and display it in my own tool with no big problem. With offline CB and MB with the patches I have everything WotC sells for free. Maybe it won't be quite as slick, but it will work.

I already have the RPGTable site continuing to run the VTT as well. They support many different games. It wouldn't surprise me if they also supported other aspects of 4e (actually they have ALL the 4e monsters in the VTT, not the ideal interface, but actually not that bad either). You have to buy them, but its a cheap one-time thing. In any case I only really need it there if I play using VTT, which is nice and I do play with it some, but I could always use Maptool instead.

I've played with a number of people who have no DDI access and play 4e fine. Maybe they aren't going to track down every obscure feat or whatever, but they certainly COULD.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 6:06PM, bone_naga wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 6:55PM, Polaris wrote:

I disagree.  Wotc made it deliberately difficult to nearly impossible to play 4E without using online support, more so than any other edition of DnD in history.  Moreover, they made the on-line support an integral part of the game from almost the beginning, and made it basically impossible to keep up with the latest errata and changes without using online support.  Certainly they made it so that going completely online was so inconvenient that many have found it basically impossible.

I do blame Wotc for this especially when they look to pull the online rug out from under their own customers to force an edition change with forced obsolescence.

-Polaris 

I disagree completely.

Did they strongly encourage use of their digital tools? Yes.

Did they then switch to online only? Yes

Did they do this so that they could switch off this edition at the proper time to push people to a new edition? Well there's no proof but quite possibly.

But did they make it impossible or nearly so to play the game without DDI? Not at all, and there are plenty of players out there not using DDI, myself included, that prove this.

I see no evidence that 4e is any harder to play offline than 3e was, which never had much in the way of tools. Both games have a massive number of books and supplements, magazine articles, etc from which you can source PC options, monsters, etc. This isn't much different from late 2e either, or even 1e. We had no issues with all that in any of those editions. There's no reason we will in 4e either.

Dec 2, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Pashalik_Mons wrote:

See, while I agree that the errata pushes people toward the online rules, I really doubt that pulling the tools will force those people to drop 4e.  I think a goodly number of them will just drop the errata.  

Meh, most of the errata isn't that big a deal anyway. RC has most of the rules errata, and you can just download the master 4e errata document for the rest. Slap it on your iPad and just refer to it when you make a PC.

Myrhdraak, as sad as it is, I think you're taking the right tactic.  I've always downloaded PDFs of each article as they've come out... but it's sounding like it's time to build offline 4e databases to hold all the info in the likely eventuality that they take it offline on the Wizards site.

While I know lots of folks play without errata, the simple ease of having everything, including all book options, errata, and Dragon article content at my fingertips is not something I'd like to lose.  Maybe some intrepid soul will figure out a way to make it usable with the old (offline) character builder format.  If not, there's going to be a lot of us with a lot of home-brewed databases & spreadsheets. 

Dec 3, 2012 -- 12:10PM, AbdulAlhazred wrote:

I see no evidence that 4e is any harder to play offline than 3e was, which never had much in the way of tools. Both games have a massive number of books and supplements, magazine articles, etc from which you can source PC options, monsters, etc. This isn't much different from late 2e either, or even 1e. We had no issues with all that in any of those editions. There's no reason we will in 4e either.

    I've played both extensively.  3e was fine to play by  hand.  4e is much better with machine help.  A prime reason is that most 3e classes were just "I attack." while 4e is "I use one of 10 powers this round."

Don't need a machine. 3x5 notecards with the important info for each power. Works great. Just have to update them when you level, and keep track of which of your magic items and/or feats work with ___ and what effect they have.
Not that hard.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 11:28AM, Myrhdraak wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 1:21PM, hunterian7 wrote:

I've played D&D 4th edition since its start in 2008. I've subscribed to DDI for most of its existence but I've never used the Character Builder. In fact, I haven't relied upon the online tools at all. I use the errata and pencil it into my books. I know that there are a lot of players that use the online tools heavily. I hope Wizards keeps them around after D&D 5th is released. If they are removed then that's on Wizards and not the individuals.

I have created a 4th Edition Combat Rules pdf and one 4th Edition Skill Rules pdf, joining the material from PHB and the Rules Compendium, with the PHB look and feel. It only took me two weekends, and now our group have an easily searchable, bookmarked pdf with all errata in there (and hard to see that it is not the real stuff). If WotC don't want to sell you stuff, you can always create it yourself......

It wouldn't be to much work to create a Fighter compendium with all its material and errata included, etc. I would happily pay WotC if they provided that to me, but if they don't....well then I will do  it for myself and my players.

Great minds think alike; I've done this, and more. My group doesn't even carry books anymore; we just bring our laptops or print out what we need for chargen and play.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 9:11PM, DavidArgall wrote:

Dec 3, 2012 -- 12:10PM, AbdulAlhazred wrote:

I see no evidence that 4e is any harder to play offline than 3e was, which never had much in the way of tools. Both games have a massive number of books and supplements, magazine articles, etc from which you can source PC options, monsters, etc. This isn't much different from late 2e either, or even 1e. We had no issues with all that in any of those editions. There's no reason we will in 4e either.

    I've played both extensively.  3e was fine to play by  hand.  4e is much better with machine help.  A prime reason is that most 3e classes were just "I attack." while 4e is "I use one of 10 powers this round."

Eh, I did up a character by hand a few weeks ago and played it. Didn't have any real issues. Seemed no harder than back in the 2e days. Heck, I even used a theme and some power book options. Of course I know the system fairly well. I'm sure there are 100's of options that I could have fiddled with in CB for hours if I had felt like it. Still, the character was exactly what I wanted and took 30 minutes to build. I could probably have done it in 10 in a pinch.

Dec 5, 2012 -- 8:43PM, AbdulAlhazred wrote:

    I've played both extensively.  3e was fine to play by  hand.  4e is much better with machine help.  A prime reason is that most 3e classes were just "I attack." while 4e is "I use one of 10 powers this round."

Eh, I did up a character by hand a few weeks ago and played it. Didn't have any real issues. Seemed no harder than back in the 2e days. Heck, I even used a theme and some power book options. Of course I know the system fairly well. I'm sure there are 100's of options that I could have fiddled with in CB for hours if I had felt like it. Still, the character was exactly what I wanted and took 30 minutes to build. I could probably have done it in 10 in a pinch.

My biggest concern, truthfully, isn't that I and the 3 other "high system mastery" focused folks in my gaming group can't build a character by hand with dead tree products; my concern is for the 2-3 people in my regular gaming group that can't. We have a group of 7 (6 players and 1 DM, with rotating DM duties) and in that spread, we have a couple of folks who are lucky to make the monthly game session, let alone have time to surf the boards, read through the power guides, etc.
For those players, the online resources are much more important, since it allows them to build much quicker and more concisely than dead tree would, if they even knew where to look for the feat/power/theme/background they had in mind.

Dec 9, 2012 -- 5:53PM, DaBugbear wrote:

Dec 5, 2012 -- 8:43PM, AbdulAlhazred wrote:

    I've played both extensively.  3e was fine to play by  hand.  4e is much better with machine help.  A prime reason is that most 3e classes were just "I attack." while 4e is "I use one of 10 powers this round."

Eh, I did up a character by hand a few weeks ago and played it. Didn't have any real issues. Seemed no harder than back in the 2e days. Heck, I even used a theme and some power book options. Of course I know the system fairly well. I'm sure there are 100's of options that I could have fiddled with in CB for hours if I had felt like it. Still, the character was exactly what I wanted and took 30 minutes to build. I could probably have done it in 10 in a pinch.

My biggest concern, truthfully, isn't that I and the 3 other "high system mastery" focused folks in my gaming group can't build a character by hand with dead tree products; my concern is for the 2-3 people in my regular gaming group that can't. We have a group of 7 (6 players and 1 DM, with rotating DM duties) and in that spread, we have a couple of folks who are lucky to make the monthly game session, let alone have time to surf the boards, read through the power guides, etc.
For those players, the online resources are much more important, since it allows them to build much quicker and more concisely than dead tree would, if they even knew where to look for the feat/power/theme/background they had in mind.

Sure, I guess the question is what would make 4e worse than say 3.5 or PF etc in that regard if WotC shut down its tools. Surely the tools ARE convenient (hence the DDI logo under my avatar), but without them 4e doesn't turn into a pumpkin, and in fact there is the old CB and I believe a Hero Lab module, as well as MANY spreadsheets which can all at least do some of the work, like for other games.

In other words there's no reason 4e's fans will disappear because CB isn't there anymore. It would be a tragedy to lose it, but...

The biggest handicap to using Dead Trees is you can only use what has been published, and you might have to flip through the books. Just like you had to do in 2e, 3e, and 3.5. In 4e, it is mildly simpler, since several races did not get race splat-books. In fact, only 2 races got splat books.
"High-mastery?" pffft. It is difficult to build a bad or unworkable character. And there is a lot of disagreement about what ratings powers have. Some people swear by powers I think are useless, and vice versa. "What that? That's feeble." "Dude! that's an encounter-breaker."
So, unless you are totally munchkining, not having access to absolutely everything is not that great an impediment. Just having the book in which a class is introduced should be enough to run the character all the way to lvl30. Maybe not perfect, but still pretty good. (OK, if you are using a build from a different book, it certainly won't be optimal, but still should be playable.)

I think what a lot of people are talking about with the lack of tools fits my earlier car metaphor.  Yes you can use the old way, and some would even say it is preferable (old way being walking) but it will still suck to lose the car.

I know I consider myself to have medium-high system mastery (I know some classes very well, others not so well) and I can build a functional character of any race/class/theme what-have-you in less than 15 minutes.  I don't think I would be able to do so, or have those characters be nearly as good, without the online tools. 

Dec 11, 2012 -- 3:28PM, Matyr wrote:

I think what a lot of people are talking about with the lack of tools fits my earlier car metaphor.  Yes you can use the old way, and some would even say it is preferable (old way being walking) but it will still suck to lose the car.

I know I consider myself to have medium-high system mastery (I know some classes very well, others not so well) and I can build a functional character of any race/class/theme what-have-you in less than 15 minutes.  I don't think I would be able to do so, or have those characters be nearly as good, without the online tools. 

This is what I was trying to convey, though less well apparently.

Its not that it 4e is UNABLE to be played without the online tools. It's that it is a bit more difficult to manage the between-game stuff without them.
Deal breaker? Nope. I love the system, and have played D&D for decades with no computer involvment whatsoever. Does is suck, and I hope it doesn't come to that? Yep. I enjoy convienent things.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 3:15PM, WhisperMagellan wrote:

The biggest handicap to using Dead Trees is you can only use what has been published, and you might have to flip through the books. Just like you had to do in 2e, 3e, and 3.5. In 4e, it is mildly simpler, since several races did not get race splat-books. In fact, only 2 races got splat books.
"High-mastery?" pffft. It is difficult to build a bad or unworkable character. And there is a lot of disagreement about what ratings powers have. Some people swear by powers I think are useless, and vice versa. "What that? That's feeble." "Dude! that's an encounter-breaker."
So, unless you are totally munchkining, not having access to absolutely everything is not that great an impediment. Just having the book in which a class is introduced should be enough to run the character all the way to lvl30. Maybe not perfect, but still pretty good. (OK, if you are using a build from a different book, it certainly won't be optimal, but still should be playable.)

That's what I like about 4e. I haven't seen anyone make a really bad character accidentally or if they pick the powers they like. I have one player in my campaign who built his character for high roleplaying value, yet he is still very effective in combat. Best of both worlds!

I'm glad someone else feels that the power ratings aren't exactly cut and dry. I browse Character Op a fair bit, looking for advice and the guides there helped me with my first character ( Archer ranger). But my girlfriend wanted to play an Ossassin (Shroud assassin) which isn't considered crash hot as a striker, but she liked the idea. There were powers listed that weren't very good, so I suggested things based on their rating. She preferred to take powers for the flavour and everything runs fine. I'm even tempted to play that class because of how well she has run it.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 3:28PM, Matyr wrote:

I think what a lot of people are talking about with the lack of tools fits my earlier car metaphor.  Yes you can use the old way, and some would even say it is preferable (old way being walking) but it will still suck to lose the car.

I know I consider myself to have medium-high system mastery (I know some classes very well, others not so well) and I can build a functional character of any race/class/theme what-have-you in less than 15 minutes.  I don't think I would be able to do so, or have those characters be nearly as good, without the online tools. 

Yes but in this case I think the better metaphor is driving the car to the store that's only a block or two away. Sure it's convenient, but not only is it easy to walk, plenty of people choose to do it even if the car is available because the convenience doesn't always outweigh the cost of gas.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 2:58PM, bone_naga wrote:

Dec 11, 2012 -- 3:28PM, Matyr wrote:

I think what a lot of people are talking about with the lack of tools fits my earlier car metaphor.  Yes you can use the old way, and some would even say it is preferable (old way being walking) but it will still suck to lose the car.

I know I consider myself to have medium-high system mastery (I know some classes very well, others not so well) and I can build a functional character of any race/class/theme what-have-you in less than 15 minutes.  I don't think I would be able to do so, or have those characters be nearly as good, without the online tools. 

Yes but in this case I think the better metaphor is driving the car to the store that's only a block or two away. Sure it's convenient, but not only is it easy to walk, plenty of people choose to do it even if the car is available because the convenience doesn't always outweigh the cost of gas.

I agree entirely.  Granted everyone is going to have a different idea of what "a block or two away" is and whether that makes it worth it or not.  I would say the store is "not far away" instead, to leave it intentionally vague.  Then it is just the situational things that matter.

Do you need to go to the store to get medical tape because you just cut your hand?  Car.
Are you bored and wouldn't mind the diversion? Walk.
Is it 14 below outside? Car.
Are you trying to lose weight so the extra exercise is nice? Walk.
Do you live in the middle of nowhere and a "close" store is still a bit away? Car (I used to live somewhere that we drove to go get the mail).

In all those situations yes you can probably get to the store without a car but having the option is really nice.

All of these things can be equated to RL stuff in terms of character building.

Do you have 30 minutes to make 5 characters before you head out of town?  Builder
Are you enjoying flipping through the old books in the study? Pen+paper
Are you working 80 hours a week as a programmer and don't want to even think numbers for longer than you need to?  Builder
Do you not want to pay for Next because you think it is a waste of time? Pen+paper. 

 edit: *cough* Whoops, got threads mixed up. Move along, nothing to see here.