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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:31PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2010
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First of all, I'd like to congratulate the design team on a mostly successful first shot at the Monk, particularly their excellent use and adaptation of my crude attempt based on the design conventions of the L1-5 packet. Now onto the good, bad and ugly: The Good:
- Tying the Monk into the expertise system. I'm liking this standardization. As an aside, I wish you'd separate class exclusive maneuvers on the maneuver list.
- Most of the general parameters of the monk: proficiencies, attack bonus, hit dice, Wis bonus to AC.
- Neat Monk exclusive maneuvers. Virtually all of them are interesting, Flurry of Blows excepted.
The Bad:
- Alignment restrictions. I'm sure some/most may disagree, but I dislike it. Strikes me as something that should be modular/optional.
- Unarmed damage (1d6 is inadequate given it's their one and only weapon in practice),
- Ki DC bonuses (should be higher; Wisdom is a secondary stat).
- Flurry of Blows is a worse Whirlwind Attack. Redundant.
(edited to add) Upon further review I've found that this isn't the case since you can actually attack the same target multiple times with it as per the RAW.
- Generic, bland and unremarkable implementation of Ki. Absolutely boring.
The Ugly:
- Boring immunities.
- Deflect arrows is inelegantly worded; the 'catch' effect of expending two dice is almost pointless; may as well add it to the three dice effect, or allow for a Deflect with two dice.
Suggestions:
Alignment Restrictions: Make these optional/modular.
Deflect Arrows: Condense/clarify wording. Allow for 'Deflections' at two invested dice; the monk has to wait far too long (10th level!) to do the single coolest thing with this maneuver, and the power of it doesn't justify such a delayed onset.
Flurry of Blows:
Passive Benefit: You can gain Advantage on Two Weapon Fighting attacks.
Trigger: You make a melee attack with Two Weapon Fighting with two light finesse weapons
Benefit: Expend any number of Expertise Dice. You make an additional melee attack for each Expertise Dice spent in this way this turn subject to the conditions of Two Weapon Fighting, using the results of the triggering attack roll for these attacks. Roll the expended dice. For each expended dice, you can increase the damage of an attack made in this way by the result of one of these rolls.
Ki: Make this an encounter based resource that power Ki Disciplines (like more powerful Manuevers) with the option to 'burn' expended Ki, and/or can be used as extra Expertise Dice beyond normal limits (though each can be used only 1/encounter). Burned Ki are replenished at the end of a long rest.
Ki Bonuses: Increment these by +1 in recognition of the fact that Wis is a secondary ability of Monks.
Way of the Fist: Make this a 1d8. Monks are stuck with their fists. Rogues have access to 1d8 finesse weapons (katana). Fighters get to use 1d12 greatswords. It's only fair that the one and only weapon monks can really use in practice have a decent damage dice.
Dragonette says: Let's mind the code of conduct please
Moderated by
Dragonette
on Nov 15, 2012 - 10:19AM
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:42PM
#2
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Resembles the 3rd edition Monk too much. I like 4E's psionic monk more, and I wish this was less martial flavored and more mystical.
Also, Flurry of Blows is like a more tedious, less effective version of deadly strike and whirlwind attack.
Also, why is there an alignment restriction? Haven't we grown out of this by now?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 5:58PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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Yeah, I've got to agree on the alignment restriction bit. I mean, would you say that the Monkey King is Lawful? Of course not, and he's one of the iconic figures of mythological kung fu. Maybe a mention that most monks are lawful, but chaotic monks should be possible as well. Hell, look at most of the cast of Ranma 1/2; they're pretty much all Monks by DnD standards, and most of them are probably Chaotic as well - Ranma's name translates to "Wild Horse" for a reason.  Also, an idea for a better way to implement Flurry of Blows: treat it like two-weapon fighting, with the Expertise Dice off-setting the penalty suffered from having to take the lower roll as a result of having Disadvantage like Composed Attack does, and extra magical effects from spending multiple Expertise Dice like other Monk maneuvers. I wouldn't mind seeing a Ki Blast maneuver, either, that lets you either make unarmed attacks at range (with that range being, say, 5 feet x highest expertise dice roll), and having additional magic effects on the use of multiple expertise dice, or one that lets you make an extra attack that deals damage equal to your expertise dice (and possibly additional magic effects).
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 9:13PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2012
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Also, Flurry of Blows is like a more tedious, less effective version of deadly strike and whirlwind attack.
Also, why is there an alignment restriction? Haven't we grown out of this by now?
Not true, the combination of having both FoB and Deadly Strike is good! It allows the monk to be a more versatile and efficient damage dealer. For example, if the monk hits a strong opponent with his initial attack, he can use Deadly Strike to full effect, like a fighter. If he misses, he can still fall back on FoB to allow him another chance (or two) at dealing damage to the opponent.
Also, FoB can be used to hit multiple opponents at varying distances. Effectively, a monk could strike one opponent, use part of his movement, strike again, move again, and strike again (see pg.13 How to Play, Movement in Combat: Breaking up a Move). In comparison, Whirlwind only allows the character to spend extra expertise dice to hit "another creature within your reach"... the monk's FoB doesn't have that restriction.
...and yes, alignment restrictions should be left to the discretion of the DM/players.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 11:23PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2010
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Also, FoB can be used to hit multiple opponents at varying distances. Effectively, a monk could strike one opponent, use part of his movement, strike again, move again, and strike again (see pg.13 How to Play, Movement in Combat: Breaking up a Move). In comparison, Whirlwind only allows the character to spend extra expertise dice to hit "another creature within your reach"... the monk's FoB doesn't have that restriction.
I'd already considered that; the problem is this a situational benefit due to Opportunity Attacks, leaving only specific formations of enemies where it is truly exploitable. I'd rather have Whirlwind Attack where I can effectively apply advantage on one target to all subsequent attacks. Either way, it is far too similar to Whirlwind Attack.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:15AM
#6
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Also, FoB can be used to hit multiple opponents at varying distances. Effectively, a monk could strike one opponent, use part of his movement, strike again, move again, and strike again (see pg.13 How to Play, Movement in Combat: Breaking up a Move). In comparison, Whirlwind only allows the character to spend extra expertise dice to hit "another creature within your reach"... the monk's FoB doesn't have that restriction.
I'd already considered that; the problem is this a situational benefit due to Opportunity Attacks, leaving only specific formations of enemies where it is truly exploitable. I'd rather have Whirlwind Attack where I can effectively apply advantage on one target to all subsequent attacks. Either way, it is far too similar to Whirlwind Attack.
A d6 damage die seems fine to me. FoB and Deadly Strike make the die for the fist almost uneeded at higher levels. Plus I can't remember atm if their fist is considered a finesse weapon. If so, that only makes it better.
My two copper.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 1:02AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2012
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Also, FoB can be used to hit multiple opponents at varying distances. Effectively, a monk could strike one opponent, use part of his movement, strike again, move again, and strike again (see pg.13 How to Play, Movement in Combat: Breaking up a Move). In comparison, Whirlwind only allows the character to spend extra expertise dice to hit "another creature within your reach"... the monk's FoB doesn't have that restriction.
I'd already considered that; the problem is this a situational benefit due to Opportunity Attacks, leaving only specific formations of enemies where it is truly exploitable. I'd rather have Whirlwind Attack where I can effectively apply advantage on one target to all subsequent attacks. Either way, it is far too similar to Whirlwind Attack.
A d6 damage die seems fine to me. FoB and Deadly Strike make the die for the fist almost uneeded at higher levels. Plus I can't remember atm if their fist is considered a finesse weapon. If so, that only makes it better.
Yes, it's counted as a finesse weapon for monks...
@Surrealistik - an Ambush Specialist could easily counter the imposed opportunity attacks that the "strike-move-strike-move" would produce, allowing the monk to move around the battlefield with impunity. While I will respect your preference, I still must disagree with your statement that it is too whirlwind-like...
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 1:40AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2012
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Ki: Make this an encounter based resource that power Ki Disciplines (like more powerful Manuevers) with the option to 'burn' expended Ki. Burned Ki are replenished at the end of a long rest.
I absolutely love the idea!!!! 
I would also suggest that Ki should replace Expertice Dice alltogether in the monk.
It gives the monk the same core mechanics of D&D Next and makes him very distinct from the fighter class mechanic - which will start to become too boring if it gets implemented in ALL Classes (ex. rogues)
You could have the Ki points that replenish after meditation in a short rest and you can use them for Monk Maneuvers and if you want to perform thing such as "Stunning Strike" and "Wholeness of Body" that can replenish after a Long Rest. So it puts you in the position to choose how to spend your Ki reserves.
It kind of surprises me that everyone assaulted the alignment restriction but I generally agree - It isn't THAT iconic and it restricts player creativity.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 6:27AM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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FoB is arguably BETTER than Whirlwind attack. WA has you make a single attack, which is then compared to the AC of several foes. It's not clear that this portion counts as an attack on those secondary targets (and so it's hard to argue that a crit would crit them all). FoB, on the other hand, specifically states that each roll is an attack roll - so logically each has a chance to crit. If you combine this with some means of gaining advantage, you can have an effective crit fishing build.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 8:47AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2010
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@Surrealistik - an Ambush Specialist could easily counter the imposed opportunity attacks that the "strike-move-strike-move" would produce, allowing the monk to move around the battlefield with impunity. While I will respect your preference, I still must disagree with your statement that it is too whirlwind-like...
Here's the obvious problem: Guerilla Tactics _demands_ your level 9 feat slot, precluding you from taking powerhouse feats like Stealthy Escape and Master Detective, just so Flurry of Blows can be a bit better. You also still have to hit the target! Not worth it at all.
@ Da_Craw: Actually, that Whirlwind Attack uses a single roll for _all_ attacks is a significant advantage. Why? Because you can cherry pick the target that has the most bonuses/least penalties, and thus effectively echo that benefit across all targets. For example, if there are two invisible targets adjacent to you, and one target you have Advantage against, you can simply attack the target granting Advantage, granting you a higher attack roll that applies against all targets, including the invisible ones which you would have otherwise taken hefty penalties against.
@ Jenks: Being effectively forced into using a 1d6 damage dice sucks, especially when contrasted to the 1d8 katana (also a finesse weapon) of the Rogues, or the 1d12 greatswords of Fighters.
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