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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:10PM
#71
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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1) Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk? Why or why not?
No. Absolutely not. It makes me want to drive down to WotC and Stunning Strike the designers because they're going overboard with expertise dice.
Could you explain why you don't want them to use expertise dice? What does "going overboard" mean? Why is it bad that they have it?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:12PM
#72
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Everything is pretty "yea, ok, sure."
But the one thing I feel strongly about is all the martial classes using the exact same ED progression. It's getting really old really fast.
I agree with you. Its like we are re-living the sorcerer and warlock experience and expecting different results.
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Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:41PM
#73
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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1) Expertise Dice? I don't like it in concept, but I think that's a strong implementation. My suggestion would be to give monks more, smaller, die than the other classes. A fighter spending all his dice on deadly strike should IMHO average more damage than the monk...but the monk should be better at doing lots of little things. The fighter throws down 3d12 to deadly strike averaging almost 20 bonus damage. The Monk spends 1d4 on a flurry, and another 2d4 on a movement trick, and another 3d4 on a third thing... thus frequently hitting the "supernatural effect from multiple die" limits but still not having as large numbers to throw around. Or, see #2 below
2) Ki Uses? No, I don't like the framework. Whatever is done for the at-will interest should be tied into the Ki, instead of Ki standing to the side completely unintegrated. Perhaps you can spend a Ki Usage to upgrade an effect w/o spending the dice (getting you the better effects a few levels early, at the expense of a daily or encounter resource)? Maybe monks just don't need a 2nd resource? I'm not sure, but I don't like the way it is now.
3) Ki abilities? Eh ... they're classic abilities, but too locked-in for my taste. I'd prefer more mix-and-match.
4) Yes, I think the monk maneuvers are well chosen.
5) I didn't look too closely at the shared maneuvers, but the list looked good to me.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 5:21PM
#74
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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1) Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk? Why or why not?
Yes. Expertise dice are a simple and intuitive mechanic that applies very nicely across different classes. In addition, I like how maneuvers can be scaled with the addition of extra dice. I don't think mechanics need to be class specific. As the designers have said, many classes use spells, so why not ED? The difference is in the implementation. Wizards and Clerics cast different spells. Similarly, if Rogues, Fighters, and Monks have different maneuvers, things are good.
2) Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses? Why or why not?
Yes. Daily uses makes things feel more special and magical, which is what Ki should represent. My view on mechanics is this: the designers should avoid or use mechanics for certain classes dogmatically. For example, not every martial class should automatically get expertise dice. If ED fit the class concept, use them. If not, don't use them. In this case, I think the daily resource fits and works well, so use it.
3) Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate? What else would you like to see?
Yeah, I think so. Stunning Fist and Healing are both traditionally part of the monk (well, the 3.5 monk had them). Other things I'd like to see would be spectacular attacks or movement tricks. Perhaps limited flight (like from Crouching Tiger), or things that you could do with daily powers in 4E.
4) Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk? Why or why not? What other maneuvers would you like to see?
Flurry of Blows? Check. Dodging/Catching Arrows? Check. Running Really Fast (up walls and on water)? Check. Falling Without Damage? Check. Dodging Attacks? Check. Throwing Foes? Check. Jumping Really Far? Check. Smashing Objects? Check. Looks good so far.
What else would I like to see? Hmm...maybe a trip attack? An advanced disarm? Leap of the Heavens (a more potent version of Vault, make it magical).
5) Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk? Are there any you think should be added?
Yes, I think so. I'm not sure if they need anything else right now, they have a pretty good list.
6) Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
Unarmed Strike seems good. I'll need to play it out, but right now it seems like Monk vs Fighter is trading out defense, HP, and damage for fancy stuff. Purity of Body and Pure Mind are cool. Undaunted Strike is crazy looking at first, but in game terms it effectively says, "Your unarmed attacks ignore weapon based resistances (such as non-magic, non-silver, non-cold iron, etc)." In other words, "Your fists become awesome."
7) Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
Again, I'll have to try it out, but it seems ok. You will have lower AC than a Fighter, but higher AC than a Rogue (I think). It might end up being too much with Stat boosts, because you get to boost two stats (and so every so often you will get a +2 bonus to AC). But my gut says it will be ok. The best Fighter AC is 19 (with plate and shield) and the best Monk AC is 20 (with maxed out Dex and Wis). So a maxed out monk will have a slightly higher AC. But a Fighter will have more HP, especially because they can be boosting Con this whole time.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 6:04PM
#75
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2012
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DO NOT USE THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT ALIGNMENT. Go elsewhere, there are plenty of options. I will report any post as off-topic that discusses alignment in this thread.
This thread is for discussing the meat of the Monk class. Discussion questions:
1) Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk? Why or why not?
2) Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses? Why or why not?
3) Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate? What else would you like to see?
4) Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk? Why or why not? What other maneuvers would you like to see?
5) Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk? Are there any you think should be added?
6) Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
7) Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
1) I have mixed feelings. It looks like Expertise Dice are a great system that can be used for lots of things. Flurry of Blows using ED seems really natural. So from that point of view I like it. However as mentioned there is the worry that it is getting too much of the fighters stuff. I think that having a different set of ED from the Fighter and Rogue would help. It's been mentioned that it would probably work by giving the Fighter larger dice, and the monk more but smaller dice. I think having a large set of maneuvers that are unique to the different martial classes would help.
2) I have no problems with the ki resource.
3) Uses for Ki for Lv10 and lower monks is appropriate. I would probably like a few more uses for Ki such as regaining lost ED, or staying conscious while under 0 hp.
4) Yes, the maneuvers are characteristic of the classic monk. Maneuvers for disarming would also be neat.
5) Yes, I think the only one that needs to be added is Composed Attack.
6) They are pretty boring, but dependable. I have no reason to dislike them.
7) Yes, It's simple, effective, and thematic.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 6:15PM
#76
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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Oddly, I find the Expertise rogue more acceptable now that there's a third Expertise class on the table. However, the rogue effectively became a lot worse because the monk ate its lunch, except for (some) skills.
The monk still suffers from "Like a fighter, but..." syndrome. Most of the maneuvers they get are off the fighter or rogue list. The new unique maneuvers they get are pretty awesome, though, there just aren't enough of them. Strange that they don't get Composed Attack. Iron Root Defense is cool because this is normally a high-mobility class, so giving up movement for DR is a meaningful choice.
Deadly Strike and Whirlwind Attack are trap choices because Flurry of Blows is strictly better. They shouldn't even be on the monk list.
I think Expertise for other classes, like the sorcerer, could potentially be cool. Could even be a core mechanic to define cleric domains, wizard traditions, etc. But, then we get into the complaint where every class looks "the same." It's a fine line. I personally don't mind unified mechanics, and was a big fan of 4e's powers. But perhaps detractors of 4e could chime in here?
MAD... can be a problem. I hate anything that gimps multiclassing as a side effect, and MAD does exactly that. Also, AC is a slight problem: 20 Wis, 20 Dex, and Bracers of Defense is AC 23 (unless you read the description of the Bracers really literally). That's the same as a Mountain Dwarf in +3 plate and a shield. So it's not necessarily broken, but it's pretty darn high. I do like that the monk doesn't give up the rest of their stuff while wearing armor.
Stunning Strike should be vs. Constitution, not Wisdom. It attacks the body, not the mind.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday BookThe Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 6:44PM
#77
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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1) No, the expertise dice i like only for fighters.
2) Love it, it make the monk unique.
3) Yes, they are appropiate. I ll remove the expertise from the monk, then i'll give them more ki use per day(or per short rest) and the maneuvers -> ki abilities.
4) Yes i like them, i can see a monk making lot of atacks, catching arrows or walking across the water. But again i dont like the expertise dice on this. And the Flurry of Blows is like deadly strike but u need to strike for each extra dice(one example why i dont like the expertise for rogues and monks) :-S ...
5) Yes they are appropriate, but not deadly strike.
6) Awesome, i love them :-)
7) The idea is good, but i think it is low if the monk hasn't good abilities scores...
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 6:48PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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My suggestion would be to give monks more, smaller, die than the other classes.
This is definitely worth exploring. A big advantage of the XD system is that individual classes can be tailored individually - in much the same way that prior edition spellcasters had different spell progressions, XD can also have different dice progressions.
Definitely worth exploring, and the suggestion of more+smaller dice for the Monk specifically is an idea I find intriguing.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 6:52PM
#79
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Okay seriously
1) Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk? Why or why not?
Yes. Well if fighters and rogue have it, the monks really should as well. They are better warriors than rogues.
2) Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses? Why or why not?
Meh. I prefer something of a ki point system but this'll do.
3) Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate? What else would you like to see?
They are approprate. I would like a ki blast though.
4) Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk? Why or why not? What other maneuvers would you like to see?
Yes they do. FoB is classic and works. Same with SotW. Iron Wood Defence is interesting but it has that monk in a hard stance parring blow feel. Deflect Arrows is classi. Hurricane Strike is awesome. But I miss a grapling maneuver.
5) Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk? Are there any you think should be added?
I am not all there about deadly strike. I prefer it fighter exclusive. Give them sneak attack.
6) Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
Yes. Seem right.
7) Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
It gives monks a lot of MAD. I'd prefer 12+ Dex OR Wis.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 6:55PM
#80
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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How are you going to do dex OR wis? You need dex for attacks. You need both to have enough AC.
And for people who are concerned about MAD, I count only two 'big' stats. This isn't very different from other classes. Is it so wrong to expect characters to have two high stats?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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