|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:32PM
#1
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
DO NOT USE THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT ALIGNMENT. Go elsewhere, there are plenty of options. I will report any post as off-topic that discusses alignment in this thread.
This thread is for discussing the meat of the Monk class. Discussion questions:
1) Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk? Why or why not?
2) Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses? Why or why not?
3) Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate? What else would you like to see?
4) Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk? Why or why not? What other maneuvers would you like to see?
5) Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk? Are there any you think should be added?
6) Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
7) Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:41PM
#2
|
|
|
Yay for this thread!
1.) no. I like expertise dice for fighters only. It made them unique.
2.) kind of. See below.
3.) yeah.
4.) yes, and I'd like to see a little more 4E monk in there, too.
5.) no. I don't like treading on toes of other classes without multi-classing.
6.) yes.
7.) meh. Need to test it a bit.
Re Ki: I'd like to see "Focused Ki" where you meditate for 10 min and focus your Ki. While focused, you gain X benefits. On your turn, as part of your action, you may expend/release your focused Ki to make use of one of your Ki powers. (Which you acquire by leveling).
Then you can get multiple charges of Ki as you level up (like levels 6, 11, & 16 for instance).
Anyway I'd rather actually link meditation (or rest, or drinking for drunk master) to the Ki powers. This is preferable to me over expertise dice.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:48PM
#3
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
Given that you said yes for 4), isn't it possible to also have unique things for fighters, even if the underlying structure is shared across classes?
Oh, and as far as drunken master...taking a swig is what refreshes your Expertise Dice. Like?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:52PM
#4
|
Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
|
Cross-Posting from the Other Thread first
Show
Yes, the "expertise mechanic" is interesting (and simple) enough that it could be used for every single class - that still doesn't mean I'm excited to see it used on every single class (that isn't a spellcaster). Honestly, maybe I'd be more excited if it was used on every single class, instead of "every single class (but not spellcasters)". It'd be a simpler, and more consistent, game at least.
But, that pet peeve aside: Monk looks good, I guess? Ki stuff is weird to me, in that it doesn't interact with the expertise mechanic at all (and that just seems like such an obvious thing to do with it). Static class features are generally uninteresting immunities - not a problem, just not something I care for in the slightest.
EDIT: Honestly, "Expertise" is just looking (edit2) more and more like the 5e equivalent of 3e's "Full Base Attack Bonus + Bonus Feats". (edit2) But hey, the 3e Monk could have really used Full Base Attack Bonus and some bonus feats, so it's a good move here.
It (Expertise Dice) is rapidly becoming nothing more than 5e's "Full (or High) Base Attack Bonus" - I'm really not interesting in seeing that. I was much more interested in seeing the Fighter have a cool - and unique - mechanical place in the game, and my general concern with the Fighter being "Just More of the Same" is... not exactly being alleviated. 2) Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses? Why or why not?Sure - but Ki just feels weird right now. Why does it not interact with Expertise at all? It feels like the class has been pieced together from multiple disparate drafts. 3) Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate? What else would you like to see?Right now they're super-dull, and super-limited. And again, the completely lack of interaction with Expertise is just... odd. 4) Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk? Why or why not? What other maneuvers would you like to see?Sure. The Monk class is... not exactly a complex concept. And Expertise/Maneuvers is a strong enough mechanic that you could build an entire game system around it. 5) Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk? Are there any you think should be added?Sure. Though why Flurry of Blows, as-written, isn't also available to the Fighter (with weapons, even), doesn't make much sense to me. 6) Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?They're really dull, and don't provide any choices. They're not offensive, just uninteresting. 7) Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk? Ugh, stacking multiple ability scores (again)? No, I really don't.
Feedback Disclaimer
Show
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)My 4e Projects
Show
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:54PM
#5
|
|
|
1) Yes, and No. Ki should then be used for maneuvers. 2) No. I'd prefer encounter, and used as a maneuver booster. If dragonball z taught me anything, is that it takes 10 minutes to gather your ki.  3) Meh. But i'm not sure what else to add. 4) Not bad so far. But i havn't played them yet. 5) Sure. 6) No. Give advantage, not immunity. 7) Yes. But only if point buy is the norm. So basically, monks get less expertise dice per turn, but get some bonus ones for an encounter.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:57PM
#6
|
Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
|
1) Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk? Why or why not?
It (Expertise Dice) is rapidly becoming nothing more than 5e's "Full (or High) Base Attack Bonus" - I'm really not interesting in seeing that. I was much more interested in seeing the Fighter have a cool - and unique - mechanical place in the game, and my general concern with the Fighter being "Just More of the Same" is... not exactly being alleviated.
Expertise/Maneuvers are a thinly disguised "martial spell list". It's a pretty decent idea, until the v-tudes figure that out.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:58PM
#7
|
|
|
Look, I really like expertise dice. They're awesome. As a mechanic they definitely work, and work well.
That said, I am more interested in having a unique fighter class than in spreading this very good mechanic around to other classes.
I agree with Greatfrito, here, that the more expertise dice are spread, the more it begins to look like "full attack + feats."
Fighters start to become the lackluster option. Even if this is mechanically sound, it feels wrong.
So I think Ki/monk needs its own schtik. Daily, per encounter, or round by round - it just has to be unique.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:59PM
#8
|
|
|
1) I'm not sure yet how I feel about expertise dice being used for multiple classes. On one hand I want each class to be unique, but on the other I understand the "If it ain't broke, Don't fix it" view. I would be comfortable with something inbetween. Using expertise dice, but maintaining a unique feel for each class. The Devs are trying to do this, as evidence with the monk having abilities other than maneuvers. So I have high hopes.
2) I like it a lot. I feel giving monk both kinds of recources will make a very interesting class. Choices will be more interesting with some of your abilities being off of Expertise Dice. It gives the Devs the ability to give story warping power to the monk without effecting it's amount of turn to turn options. Good idea.
3) I think the abilities are fine for now. Stunning fist not being on expertise dice I'm sure is going to rub some people the wrong way, but I believe it's fine the way it is. Allows it to be powerful without fear of spam.
4) I like them. Not all of them are direct damage upgrades and add cool effects that emulate some of the crazy martial arts moves we've seen. Hurricane Strike is my particular fav. Classic Bruce Lee backfist making an enemy fly into a wall.
5) Eh, they work I guess. I'm still for more unique maneuvers and less crossover. I feel the same way for spells :P
6) Passive abilities seem familiar, borderlining on copy/paste. It kind of put me off about just reusing the wisdom for AC, but I guess it's a pretty decent way to go about with what with the Stat caps and all.
7) ^
My two copper.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:01PM
#9
|
Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
|
That said, I am more interested in having a unique fighter class than in spreading this very good mechanic around to other classes.
The only real difference between a Cleric and a Wizard, apart from combat math, is the spell list. Maneuvers are delineating martial classes similarly.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:08PM
#10
|
|
|
1+2) I don't like the division of the monk's abilities into two different mechanical subsystems. I feel like the whole point of the monk is that he has a holistic approach to life: his martial and his supernatural power are the same thing. 4E captured this very well with its full disciplines.
3) First of all, I'd like to see choices rather than predetermined ki abilities at certain levels. Stunning fist and wholeness of body are classic monk abilities, and I have no objection to them, but I'd also like to see a lot more movement-related abilities, since to me running up walls, balancing on water, and at higher levels outright flying and teleporting are signatures of the pop-culture monk.
4) See 1+2. And I don't like their specificity for unarmed combat. Armed monks are also a thing.
5) See 1+2.
6) Generally, I kind of want to cut down on the "random little perks all over the class table". Clear mind is I think important enough to the monk concept that all monks could justifiably get it all the time. Purity of body should be an optional ki ability to cure diseases (their own or others').
7) Yeah, it's all right for Monk Classic. I want to see an option for Str-based Brawny Monks, but that might require a subclass remathed and rebuilt from the ground up.
Conclusion: Expand the ki system (or whatever you want to call it) so it can cover all or almost all of the monk's abilities. Probably make it something other than a daily resource - ki is not supposed to "run out". Don't screw over the unarmed monk, but don't screw over armed monks either.
Recommendation: Dust off and refluff the incarnum system. Soulmelds are "disciplines" rather than items. Essentia points are ki points.
|
|
|
