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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:29PM
#111
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2012
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*shruggs* Out of all the changes to the games over the years and the talk about inclusiveness from the designers this time around, this was the #1 thing I won't budge on. Vancian, Spell points, maneuvers, attack progression, how saves are done, broken spells, etc.. are all elements I can swing pretty far and wide on in their relation to different editions of the game. But not this. I've had far too many problems with players and DMs that hinge on Alignment's inclusion and requirements in the game. If they come out with another packet with a non-lawful monk or a side bar saying "this is for flavor, ignore it at-will" then I'll continue. If not, I'll remain happy playing the games I currently have.
Do they really need to put in "please ignore anything you want; it's your game" again? They've already said - in the playtest materials no less, which is a far cry from a finished edition - to basically do so if it works for the group. Okay, yes, they said the DM runs the game, but in a practical sense, nobody in their right mind just goes all tyrannical (and keeps players long).
Can we not just figure that people are going to be smart enough to ignore things they don't like or get in the way of their fun? Does it need spelled out? Seriously?
For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon
@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:30PM
#112
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Easier for you, but it still makes you a jerk.
Have the balls to admit that you're making a choice to deny your player full enjoyment of their character, rather than being a spineless coward.
In all seriousness I've never seen you make such directly offensive comments. You may have in the past but does anything anyone said on this thread thus far warrant this? Is this over alignment restrictions? Normally your a voice of quippy, one line reason.
Yes, and the reason is the guy who said alignment restrictions in the rules are good because they serve as a shield against blame when the DM is telling a player that they can't play their character the way they want to.
And I mean every word of it. Every word.
That's fine if that's the hill you want to die on but why is direct insults acceptable, despite you meaning. every. word. of. it., less worse than edition warring? How does it help forums already dripping with vitriol and ridiculous melodrama?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:31PM
#113
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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yeah I'm pretty much done on the alignment point I've hit it so hard elsewhere I just don't have it in me to keep talking about it. I did get an interesting idea up thread. possibly tie ki into the expertise die area....Maybe you can spend ki to get extra expertise dice or you can spend expertise dice for ki points something like that. That way I can always spend exp dice to make my attack into a stunning attack should I want to. However I think if this were the case the self healing ability would have to have a strict caveat for spending exp dice as ki points for it. Something like if you spend an exp die for the healing you roll the die and add your wis mod to determine how much you get back, and that you are only able to do it once per round regardless of how many dice you have and you may only spend one die on it. That may be entirely broken though. It was just an idea.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:31PM
#114
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2006
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*shruggs* Out of all the changes to the games over the years and the talk about inclusiveness from the designers this time around, this was the #1 thing I won't budge on.
But it is not in the game, it is in a playtest. This is not a game yet.
I'm well aware of that fact. I hope they don't put this into the published game. But I'm patient and I'll wait for another packet to come out further down the road. If, by then, they haven't removed the restrictions (which should be ample time for them to mull over their decision) then I can only assume that it's set in stone.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:34PM
#115
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2012
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Right now I am digging the dual ability dependence, at minimum it's unique. AS more Hybrid classes arise I think we will see more classes needing dual attribute focus, so it may be weird now, but less weird when there is 12+ classes. (I get that all classes essentially have equal abiility focus but this calss seems to have DUAL focus meaning there is less options for shaping the charachter toward certain skils etc...)
I like that there is a precedent for having a class with Expertise AND an additional action (ki) type of abilities. Making all abilities be derivative of a ED would cause classes to feel too similiar. Gives me better idea of where they could go with a Warlord, and I like it. Even giving a rogue a KI like backstab for mega damage or a 1/day Skill mastery bonus could solve much of their problems with rogues now.
It also seems like the net benefits of this class have a decent amount of heft, more then other classes, which hopefully implies that we can expect more from future rogues and wizards.... nice.
Manuevers are very cool, no complaints there.
My heart is all a flutter!
My mind is a deal-breaker.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:35PM
#116
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Right now I am digging the dual ability dependence, at minimum it's unique. AS more Hybrid classes arise I think we will see more classes needing dual attribute focus, so it may be weird now, but less weird when there is 12+ classes. (I get that all classes essentially have equal abiility focus but this calss seems to have DUAL focus meaning there is less options for shaping the charachter toward certain skils etc...)
I like that there is a precedent for having a class with Expertise AND an additional action (ki) type of abilities. Making all abilities be derivative of a ED would cause classes to feel too similiar. Gives me better idea of where they could go with a Warlord, and I like it. Even giving a rogue a KI like backstab for mega damage or a 1/day Skill mastery bonus could solve much of their problems with rogues now.
It also seems like the net benefits of this class have a decent amount of heft, more then other classes, which hopefully implies that we can expect more from future rogues and wizards.... nice.
Manuevers are very cool, no complaints there.
My heart is all a flutter!
I know this definitely gave me an outlook on how the Barbarian might be shaping up.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:36PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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Wholeness of Body: "magically regain hit points"
Step of the Wind: "magically walk along vertical surfaces ... magically walk across any liquid"
Hurricane Strike: "Doing so makes the effect magical."
No. Monks are not magic. Isn't that the whole bloody point -- that they can do awesome, superhuman stuff through training, discipline, and inner force, without having to resort to magic?
Other than that, and the stupid alignment restriction, I'd rate this monk as better than the 1-3E versions but not as good as the 4E version. (I don't recall the BECMI mystic well enough to make a comparison.)
IMO, monks use magic... and KI is their so called magical energy.
In D&D land, magic explains all that can't be explained.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:36PM
#118
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well, i know i am in the minority, but i dont like expertise dice. at all. so for me, when new classes or class revisions come out and they have just slapped expertise dice onto it, it makes me not like the class. it also makes it look like they are out of ideas. thats their main idea that they got really positive reviews on (besides advantage), so i bet we will see expertise on at least half of the builds in the phb. which sucks for me. but of course, nobody will be saying anything about the uniformity in class structure; the same people that bitch about 4e classes being 'samey' will just be falling over themselves loving it. just going on and on about it.
Mike said he wasn't terribly fond of using expertise dice for everyone.
Expertise Dice: The monk uses expertise dice, but I'm going to admit that I have a misgiving about using expertise overall.
To start with, it's clear that we have to do more to make sure that any class using expertise for maneuvers has a unique, class-defining link to them. For instance, right now the implementation of sneak attack and rogue maneuvers overall isn't quite where we'd like them to be. The monk shows you the first step we hope to take along a path that gives each class distinct maneuvers.
Still, it's a great mechanic, and i expect several classes to have it. But i do really hope not all of them will.
Or at least we get some variation on it. Like dice per encounter. Or at very least different growth rates.
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:39PM
#119
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You could actually have an AC of 22 by 10nth level depending on how high you rolled during character creation. Even worse this is potentially possible at character creation if you get lucky and play a human.
Given the odds of this are one in almost 8000 I don't think it's common enough to warrant worrying about.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say? Spoiler:
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You can follow me on Twitter: "@DnDJester"
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:39PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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Expertise for the monk, barbarian, fighter, should be good, they are all martial type classes that are similar enough that they can probably benefit from the idea. I'm not sure about the rogue, and I do believe there should be other interesting ways to handle abilities for other classes. But maybe I'm just an oddity that doesn't mind my cleric hitting with his morningstar each round and not doing tricks.
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