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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:09PM
#191
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Killing somebody with poison or from a position of hiding is counter to LG because...?
On that you have it counter to the LAWFUL part. Poison and Ambush are considered dishonorable as far as chivalry is concerned. Lawful insinuates a code of honor. Classically that code of honor forbade posioning and attacking unawares.
It doesn't matter that knights that were of the Chivalry, did ambush and such. It was deemed to be against the Code of Chivalry.
Note the code of Chivalry really only applied to the nobility, so knights interpreted that it was OK to break that code in dealing with commoners. For D&D I prefer the IDEAL form of chivalry, not the practiced code.
If for purposes of your question we are discussing whether or not a lawful good character could use poison, than we would say No they could not using the code of Chivalry, as a yard stick.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:10PM
#192
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2006
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Reminds me of that saying about how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Intent is nothing - action is everything.
Right, and when those actions lead to your death and the death of thousands because your mission fails, you can lay to rest easy knowing that you retained honor and a lawful good [tag] above your grave.
If a Paladin knows that he must infiltrate an enemy compound, get through the guards, and kill the evil warlord who's terrorizing a town then it's better to do so using sneaky tactics and possible death from the shadows instead of a full on frontal assault. Lets see:
• Getting into the town~
-Lawful Stupid: Attack the guards at the gates (because they're evil for protecting an evil fortress) and hope to get in and hide while the alarm is sounded.
-Lawful Good: Passing by in a disguise becuase these guards might not be evil and just regular guys with wives and kids to feed. It also causes less fuss and makes your entrance a secret.
• Getting through the Royal Guards~
-Lawful Stupid: Frontal assault and hope to kill as many possible before breaching the inner sanctium of the evil tyrant.
-Lawful Good: Using a poison at their nightly meal to make them sick or otherwise indisposed for duty.
Wait, whut? Lawful Good poisoning food that just about anyone might eat? Really?
I dont think so Tim.
Who said poisoning food anyone might eat? Is it hard to imagine someone disguised as a servant, grabbing the food. adding the poison and then taking it to their table? Frankly, sometimes the ends justify the means.
• Killing the evil warlord tyrant~
-Lawful Stupid: Kickin in the doors of his chambers and demanding a duel of honor, man to man, blah-blah-blah. And hoping he fights fair.
-Lawful Good: Attempt to slit his throat while he sleeps so that you can continue to do your God's work for years to come.
So the evil tyrants death means the liberation of hundreds or thousands and will break his hold over the entire territory. Why put yourself into a direct position of failure when success and you God's will are on the line?
I can see why some people get confused about alignment when I start to see statements about how killing a defenceless man in his sleep or poisoning food that anyone might eat are things that "Good" people might do.
"Good" people do that in times of crisis and tyranny. Actions mean nothing without intent or emotion.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:17PM
#193
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Reminds me of that saying about how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Intent is nothing - action is everything.
Right, and when those actions lead to your death and the death of thousands because your mission fails, you can lay to rest easy knowing that you retained honor and a lawful good [tag] above your grave.
If a Paladin knows that he must infiltrate an enemy compound, get through the guards, and kill the evil warlord who's terrorizing a town then it's better to do so using sneaky tactics and possible death from the shadows instead of a full on frontal assault. Lets see:
• Getting into the town~
-Lawful Stupid: Attack the guards at the gates (because they're evil for protecting an evil fortress) and hope to get in and hide while the alarm is sounded.
-Lawful Good: Passing by in a disguise becuase these guards might not be evil and just regular guys with wives and kids to feed. It also causes less fuss and makes your entrance a secret.
• Getting through the Royal Guards~
-Lawful Stupid: Frontal assault and hope to kill as many possible before breaching the inner sanctium of the evil tyrant.
-Lawful Good: Using a poison at their nightly meal to make them sick or otherwise indisposed for duty.
Wait, whut? Lawful Good poisoning food that just about anyone might eat? Really?
I dont think so Tim.
Who said poisoning food anyone might eat? Is it hard to imagine someone disguised as a servant, grabbing the food. adding the poison and then taking it to their table? Frankly, sometimes the ends justify the means.
• Killing the evil warlord tyrant~
-Lawful Stupid: Kickin in the doors of his chambers and demanding a duel of honor, man to man, blah-blah-blah. And hoping he fights fair.
-Lawful Good: Attempt to slit his throat while he sleeps so that you can continue to do your God's work for years to come.
So the evil tyrants death means the liberation of hundreds or thousands and will break his hold over the entire territory. Why put yourself into a direct position of failure when success and you God's will are on the line?
I can see why some people get confused about alignment when I start to see statements about how killing a defenceless man in his sleep or poisoning food that anyone might eat are things that "Good" people might do.
"Good" people do that in times of crisis and tyranny. Actions mean nothing without intent or emotion.
If your god values the code of honor and/or chivalry they most certainly would expect you to demand the fair fight.
The philosophy is that the code of honor is hard to maintain (Demanding the fair fight) and cannot be easily shed for conveneince (Slitting the throat). It is upholding the honor that makes the person Lawful and Good. Yes to those that are Chaotic it seems stupid, but they would not understand because they do not inherently see the importance of honor.
"If I kill him without it being honorable, than I have proven I am no better than those that do not hold to honor."
I am pretty sure the Lawful Stupid category is nearly a necessity.
I do not think a LAWFUL character can maintain their alignment by slitting the villains throat.
The ends do not justify the means for the Lawful Good character.
I am not arguing this from a practical standpoint of history, I am arguing this from the point of view from someone living in a cosmology where the alignments are real.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:22PM
#194
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I do not think a LAWFUL character can maintain their alignment by slitting the villains throat.
So coup de grace is an inherently non-lawful act? That's never been stated anywhere in the rules.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:22PM
#195
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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One soldier I met was a very religious, very pious, fellow from the Bronx. he was also a sniper with the Army Rangers. He was the most honest fellow you could meet. He viewed his ability as a gift from god to protect the USA.
Thats pretty scary stuff.
I agree but I have to promise you, he really seemed like a sane, normal. person.
He also was not a zealot, though he was Evangelical.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:27PM
#196
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Date Joined:
Dec 31, 2003
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Man, just look at all the pages of the things alignment gives us. Why would anyone want to give this up?
Without alignment, people would have to decide for themselves what their characters valued, and the DM couldn't just take away your character sheet over a difference in belief- why, the DM might have to provide in-game consequences or something!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:28PM
#197
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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Man, just look at all the pages of the things alignment gives us. Why would anyone want to give this up?
Without alignment, people would have to decide for themselves what their characters valued, and the DM couldn't just take away your character sheet over a difference in belief- why, the DM might have to provide in-game consequences or something!
You knwo some evil dms
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:29PM
#198
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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Man, just look at all the pages of the things alignment gives us. Why would anyone want to give this up?
Without alignment, people would have to decide for themselves what their characters valued, and the DM couldn't just take away your character sheet over a difference in belief- why, the DM might have to provide in-game consequences or something!
Get out of my head!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 1:45PM
#199
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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If thereare alignment restrictions i would like to see them a bit wider then they are now.
yes the monk has a tendency to be lawful living to a code and strict training regime.
but instead of must be lawfull make it can't be chaotic.
same for the paladin.
instead of must be lawful good make it can't be evil or chaotic.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 2:05PM
#200
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Reminds me of that saying about how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Intent is nothing - action is everything.
Right, and when those actions lead to your death and the death of thousands because your mission fails, you can lay to rest easy knowing that you retained honor and a lawful good [tag] above your grave.
"Death of thousands"? Sounds like you are trying to justify your characters selfish (or even evil) actions to me.
If a Paladin knows that he must infiltrate an enemy compound, get through the guards, and kill the evil warlord who's terrorizing a town then it's better to do so using sneaky tactics and possible death from the shadows instead of a full on frontal assault. Lets see:
• Getting into the town~
-Lawful Stupid: Attack the guards at the gates (because they're evil for protecting an evil fortress) and hope to get in and hide while the alarm is sounded.
-Lawful Good: Passing by in a disguise becuase these guards might not be evil and just regular guys with wives and kids to feed. It also causes less fuss and makes your entrance a secret.
• Getting through the Royal Guards~
-Lawful Stupid: Frontal assault and hope to kill as many possible before breaching the inner sanctium of the evil tyrant.
-Lawful Good: Using a poison at their nightly meal to make them sick or otherwise indisposed for duty.
Wait, whut? Lawful Good poisoning food that just about anyone might eat? Really?
I dont think so Tim.
Who said poisoning food anyone might eat? Is it hard to imagine someone disguised as a servant, grabbing the food. adding the poison and then taking it to their table? Frankly, sometimes the ends justify the means.
Usually the ends never justify the means. In fact there are whole tropes about the evil "do-gooder" trying to justify their abominable experiments with the justification that the ends somehow justify their depraved actions. After all - how many innocents will your character kill just to somehow magically cause world peace?
• Killing the evil warlord tyrant~
-Lawful Stupid: Kickin in the doors of his chambers and demanding a duel of honor, man to man, blah-blah-blah. And hoping he fights fair.
-Lawful Good: Attempt to slit his throat while he sleeps so that you can continue to do your God's work for years to come.
So the evil tyrants death means the liberation of hundreds or thousands and will break his hold over the entire territory. Why put yourself into a direct position of failure when success and you God's will are on the line?
I can see why some people get confused about alignment when I start to see statements about how killing a defenceless man in his sleep or poisoning food that anyone might eat are things that "Good" people might do.
"Good" people do that in times of crisis and tyranny. Actions mean nothing without intent or emotion.
Of course I disagree, it is when you are in a time of crisis that we have a chance to see your true character. And if your character turns into a backstabber in a crisis then do not be surprised if you find that you are no longer trusted by your former friends.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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