Well, i'm new here, but i hope most of you like my idea.
I'll start with some general buildings concepts about my favorite monster before i go into make actual builds, and my favorite monster is: True Dragons! Any (or at least almost all) of them.
-These creatures have the best Base Attack (plus a lot of natural attacks depending on their size category) and ALL good Saves, and these things don't end in the poor Epic Progression like a class character would do;
-They have the best Hit Dice too and the second best skill point gaining per HD;
-They have useful spell-like abilities (depending on the species) and a supernatural breath weapon that can be improved by metabreath feats and metabreath spells (and metabreath spells can be improved by metamagic feats);
-They can fly lol, and depending on the species they have others movement modes and/or a good to perfect maneuverability;
-They are the only creatures in D&D that can reach the Colossal+ size;
-They have a weak spellcasting ability when compared to fullspellcasters;
-Despite their raw power they don't have a lot of immunities like constructs and undeads do.
So in order to fix some of this traits i bring here some degrees of optimization:
-Abjurant Champion 5 raises its spellcaster level up to its Base Attack, what means that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, for instance, would have caster level of 45 instead of 19, an adult would have 27 instead of 7, a Colossal+ 52 HDs Red Dragon would have 57 instead of 27, and so on;
-Half-Celestial/Half-Fiend fix the "problem" of being only the second best at gaining skill points by changing the type's creature to outsider and giving it outsider's skill points;
-Templates or Prestige Classes to add Construct or Undead immunities to the dragon: Dracolich, Green Star Adept 10, Pale Master 10, and any others PrC and Templates we can remember!
-If you go with Pale Master, he has a Save or Die touch that raises who dies as zombies under the Pale Master control, and he can create and control a limitless number of zombies with this ability, but the Pale Master can only affect with this ability creatures with up to one size category larger than him, so a dragon of Gargantuan size can affect anyone with this (if Colossal+ is considered a separated size from Colossal, then the dragon needs to be Colossal in order to affect Colossal+ ones with this);
-Finally, after all these fixes and such, there's one thing left: Regeneration. If you guys know a way of puting this into dragons let me know, please!
Speaking of Regeneration, my next concept will be a War Troll with templates and PrC to aid its "acid weakness" and turn it immune to (almost) everything!
In my general observation dragons are all about proper feat use and tactics. DH could speak a lot on this subject. Optimized for tricks like flyby attack or hurricane breath they can be devistating. Proper use of terrain goes a long way, if one's fighting in its lair it's better off using proper breath weapon mods and close combat feats. If it's fighting outdoors focusing on flight based abilities and spellcasting will go a long way. At the end of the day you also need to remember that a dragon can play not only to its own strengths but to its foes weaknesses. Antimagic field on CL 11 or better dragon can be devistating when fighting casters (showcased in OOTS). Melee heavy opponents? Don't get close enough to get ganked. Dragons have really strong saves (even reflex which is their worst) and SR, spellcasters will have a hard time bringing down any but the lowest CR dragons. One final thing that non-cold immune dragons need to watch out for is Shivering Touch (Dex damage ruins dragons).
The Prc thing works fairly well, stuff like Abjurant Champion and other caster advancing builds can make a caster focused dragon encounter work really well, usually being a better caster at a far lower CR.
Speaking of Regeneration, my next concept will be a War Troll with templates and PrC to aid its "acid weakness" and turn it immune to (almost) everything!
The tainted-blood template (Bestiary of Krynn) gives immunity to acid damage. It's +1 CR for large creatures and also +1 LA. It can be added to any corporeal creature with a constitution score.
The Imix-blooded template (Monster Manual V) gives immunity to fire damage by way of the fire subtype. It's +1 CR and also +1 LA. It can be applied to any evil creature.
The gheden template (Dragon 313, p63) gives immunity to nonlethal damage. It's +1 LA but doesn't note a CR adjustment. It can be applied to any giant, humanoid, of monstous humanoid.
The troll-blooded feat (Dragon 319, p61) gives regeneration 1 overcome by acid and fire. It can only be taken at 1st level and requires the toughness feat. It's also a regional feat for the Greyhawk campaign setting.
If you're looking into prestige classes, the Walker in the Waste and Winterhaunt of Iborighu are interesting alternatives for a dragon that has dabbled in divine casting, since they allow it to retain the toughness that would be lost along with its Constitution score (the dry lich has unholy toughness which is a partial replacement giving Charisma to hit points, while wintry apotheosis turns you into an elemental). Elemental Savant is another option for becoming an elemental, though its own d4 hit point base is subpar.
Of course, if you don't really care about your draconic spellcasting (especially if you're one of the MM5's xorvintaal dragons) the Dragon Ascendant, Elemental Master, and Hidecarved Dragon prestige classes from the Draconomicon are already designed for you, Dragon Ascendant being the best of them, though also the most costly to enter.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Andarious-Rosethorn indeed that dragons are so much about tactics, but they are so much about raw power too, and this is an optimization thread after all, so both tactics and power and any other aspects of dragons should be optimized! About Shivering Touch:
Being immune to ability damage works against Shivering Touch (since it's Dex damage), so dragons don't need always to rely on cold immunity in order to protect against this spell, they can rely on construct or undead templates, or any others templates or PrC that gives them immunity to ability damage (Pale Master, for instance).
Maat_Mons thanks for these tips! I was already thinking about an Human with the Troll Blooded feat and some levels in an Eberron PrC that turns you into a living construct (i forgot the name of this PrC), then i would be qualified to take levels in Warforged Juggernaut turning my character into a construct WITHOUT LOSING CONSTITUTION! What means i could keep Regeneration, which is awesome combined with construct traits AND immunity to both acid and fire acquired through some template or other PrC (Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, anyone?).
There are just 2 problems:
1)Fire immunity can be pierced with Searing Spell from Sandstorm, THEN i could go with War Troll since it's not fire-weak, but War Trolls don't qualify to entering that Eberron PrC that turns you into a living construct (needs to be humanoid not giant), so i should research others ways of acquiring immunities; 2)Troll Blooded is a Greyhawk feat and Warforged Construct is an Eberron PrC, but who cares about that when optimazing?!
Slagger_the_Chuul i already had thought about Walker in the Waste, but i hadn't about the Winterhaunt of Iborighu! Thanks for that, it looks appealing both in roleplay and in optimization.
About the Draconomicon prestiges, i wanted to do something with them without losing spellcasting, but that's kind hard... Including there was a time that i ignored spellcasting a little and tried to go with a Colossal+ 52 HD Red Dragon Barbarian 20/Bloodscaled Fury 12/Rage Mage 10/Frenzied Berserk 10 (yeah lol this is kinda too much, but i just wanted to make some "God of Rage" without resorting to Divine Rules), but i realized that all of these 52 class Hit Dices were weaker than just adding more racial HDs (virtual age categories) to the dragon.
Finally then i want to thanks all of you again, and say that i'll try optimize others monsters in this topic and you guys should try that too! If you don't wanna create builds just throw here your general concepts and i will make something with it. To close this post i let here a partial build (just the levels and feats) with an interesting monster:
I used Middle Age modifiers (-1 physical +1 mental abilty scores) and Elite Ability Scores Array to give it as maximum Int and Cha as i can (it needs Concentration 6 and Spellcraft 6 for Swift Blade, and it has -6 Int... It ends with Cha 16 giving me 6th spells from Sorcerer 6 + 6 from Swift Blade 9 = 12 spellcaster level).
With the Fighter feat and some other feat i get Dodge and Mobility (requirements of Swift Blade), then i take Extend Spell -> Persistent Spell + Divine Magic (i need some domain that gives me Extra Turning, like the Undeath Domain from Libris Mortis), now i just persist Haste and since Swift Blade turns Haste into an Extraordinary Effect it can't be dispelled or affected by Antimagic Field! And the better: Quickness from Choker and Perpetual Options from Swifty when combined gives me 1 full-round actions + 2 standart actions or 3 standart actions instead (and still there is movement, free, swift and immediate actions...)!
This thing has CR around 15, casts 6th spells as a Sorcerer 12, has +15 Base Attack, 50% miss chance of ALL attacks against it, multiple actions and it has a flavour-fluffy thing about it.
Note that if you have a form of regeneration that stops with a vulnerability, and then the monster is made invulnerable to the weakness, the regeneration has been errata'd to be reduced to mere fast healing, not unstoppable regen.
I.e. the half dragon abyssal troll combo won't work.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Note that if you have a form of regeneration that stops with a vulnerability, and then the monster is made invulnerable to the weakness, the regeneration has been errata'd to be reduced to mere fast healing, not unstoppable regen.
I.e. the half dragon abyssal troll combo won't work.
I don't remember that errata; to which book does it relate?
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
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Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Buttler of the House of Trolls
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The "problem" with Tarrasque is that its Regeneration gets defeated by Wish, and others Regenerations doesn't. So a War Troll with Acid Immunity is the only thing with "Perfect" Regeneration, but since aelryinth stated that there is a errata turning it into Fast Healing the combo may not work anymore.
