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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 4:04PM
#51
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2012
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Nice Bal, I gotta say that works really well with Dragons as well of course. I'd noticed it some time ago but completely forgotten. Exceptionally cool for a martial arts or oriental themed game where PC's need to contact masters of various elemental techniques or some such as part of the plot.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 7:05PM
#52
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Ok, this is definitely an example where you could see "non-associated" levels if Sorcerer is taken but when a Dragon is a natural spellcaster should spellcasting levels really be considered non-associated.
The rules on associated/non-associated class levels address that directly actually-- if a creature has natural spellcasting then a spellcasting class that boosts that is always associated. (Adding cleric to a creature with sorcerer spellcasting on the other hand wouldn't be.)
I do think non-associated is appropriate for spellcasters, clerics, etc... on some "brute" monsters though simply because it allows the spellcasting to become a valid part of the monster. No one cares if the CR 14 giant casts cure light wounds. If he tosses down a few 4th or 5th level spells though? That's suddenly a legitimate part of the encounter.
That said, CR in general and associated/non-associated class levels in general can be abused way beyond the breaking point far more easily than standard optimization-- almost accidentally honestly. My favorite quote when I was running the elementals was in an interaction with PhoenixInferno:
Balthanon: I have pretty much been steadily increasing the CR on these guys as we've gone
to tell the truth. When the encounter is over, I'll make sure to post their stats.
PhoenixInferno: Why...why would you do that? 
My comment was, of course, because I had been revising my CR estimate, but I got a kick out of the response. 
The Tome of Battle thing does work well with dragons too, but they have so much going for them it tends to be an afterthought. They also aren't quite as cost efficient in terms of hit dice per CR. Elementals are up there in that regards along with giants and undead. Animals are actually really good for that too, which makes lycanthropes kind of deadly-- lycanthrope is just an absolutely deadly template in the hands of a DM period though.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 9:44PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2012
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WHOOOOAAAAA! Thanks for all replying! StevenO your point has logic, but i'm going through Rules As Written so even in this case of the Cleric-or-Fighter Monster i would do as SRD says: Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability. Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage. A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Anyway, you've made your point and i agree with that, but for optimizing purposes i'll use RAW. Balthanon thanks for the insight with the Maneuvers! I had not thought about that and now you're saying looks like a really nice combo! About Lycanthropes: What could be the Base Giant or Humanoid with Battletitan Dinosaur Lycanthrope Template? I took a look on War Troll, but it is Monstrous Humanoid so it doesn't count, but if it counted we could apply Voidmind Template too.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:11PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2005
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Personally, I'd just change the War Troll's type to Giant, since that's the type of the basic troll.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:43PM
#55
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StevenO your point has logic, but i'm going through Rules As Written so even in this case of the Cleric-or-Fighter Monster i would do as SRD says:
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.
Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.
Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.
A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.
Anyway, you've made your point and i agree with that, but for optimizing purposes i'll use RAW.
And if you use that it is really over optimizing CR and really defeating the difference. I have a hard time saying Cleric levels aren't an "associated" class for just about everything because everyone has clerics and they fight as well as or even better then fighters. From an optimization stand point I couldn't see taking a number of levels in Fighter when I could easily add twice that many in cleric for the same CR increase because cleric would be considered non-associated.
I know that CRs and ELs may be far from exact/perfect but some things really start throwing things off. I'll say blind devotion to the rules is one of them although ignorance of what some power up provides ("rolled stats" that equate to PB 50+ for example) can be just as bad if not worse.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 6:07AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2004
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(Tornado Throw was fun with an elemental with a 180 foot speed.)
...this worries me coming from my DM.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:14AM
#57
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That was in our interim game-- I won't be quite as brutal with the actual characters. (Unless you count the vampire encounter. Or possibly the vasuthant encounter. Maybe the akritaur displacer too...)
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