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Dec 4, 2012 -- 4:06AM, CVB wrote:

So the fact that several people see it as a 'hard baked' consequence of the rules that your social contract says it's a no-no is suddenly 'superiour'?

I find that amusing.

And let me step into this quagmire again:

YOUR SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT YOU HAVE WITH YOUR PLAYERS IS UNIQUE TO YOUR GROUP.  AND MAYBE YOU MIGHT WISH IT SO, BUT IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL.  DO NOT PRESUME AS MUCH.  EVERYONE HERE READS THE RULES DIFFERENTLY.  PLEASE RESPECT THAT.

AND AGAIN, I FEEL COMPELLED TO POINT OUT THAT SOME OF YOU ACTUALLY ADMIT TO SEEING THE 5MWD PROBLEM THAT YOU 'SOLVED' BY IGNORE/CHANGING IT.  THE FACT THAT YOU FELT THE NEED TO CHANGE OR IGNORE IT, IS PRETTY TELLING.

LIKE YOU KNOW IT EXISTS.

My apologies for the bold caps, but I suspect that a fair amount of you would ignore it, the rest still will, mind you, but not as many now. 

No one here denies that it happens.  On that you are incorrect.  Where we disagree is on the reason why it happens.  If it were a hard baked consequence of the RAW, everyone would experience it without fail when no houserules to prevent it are in effect.  That is not even remotely what is happening.  Therefore it must be a consequence of play style.  The enforcer of play style at most, if not all tables, is the DM.  Therefore is is the DMs fault.

I'm a little more critical of the players and give them equal blame for a tactic that is absurd on it's face.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 4:30AM, BatFett wrote:

Kalex, you're going to have to accept that the 5MWD will continue to be a mechanical issue, until the RAW clearly defines how many rests that a party can benefit from in a given day/24hr period.

Until that day comes, the anti-5MWD arguments of you & your brethren are worthless.

Rest times, and limits have been defined since at least 1979.  That isn't the problem.  It is those who either disregard those rules, or simply use the absurd tactic of doing nothing until they can rest again that are the problem.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 4:55AM, CVB wrote:

The game has changed since '79, you know.  It's 2012 now, if you haven't noticed.

The rules of rest have also changed significantly.  The big change was the previous edition.  Monte Cook changed them for 3e, which is why the "5WMD" is prevalent in 3.x and Pathfinder.  No one has to wait, they can simply throw a Rope Trick, hide in it, rest for the 8 hours, come out for 15 minutes.  Blow stuff up, and then repeat.  Especially with the ease it was to make scrolls.

Now, here's a funny thing, a lot of the older guys who used to use the 5MWD were actually from the Wargamer crews.

Because Wargamers are often all about efficiency, they mostly don't care about 'story', D&D for them was akin to a freeform board game sometimes without the board.  And although doing nothing for 12-18 hours, then reloading the gun (Magic User) then coming out for an Alpha Strike, then hiding back into the hole is very efficient and effective, it grates on us 3rd gen (As in AD&D 2e guys/gals with no War Gaming roots) guys because we're not overly pragmatic or efficient on how we read the rules.

Instead of treating the rules as the universe of D&D, we treat the rules as PART of it, and when we hit something that doesn't jibe with our dirty hippie ways of story and flow, we will change it.  Or if you're a hardcase, you'll drop the game and seek out another.  And another.  And another.  Like I was.  I got better.

And resting rules have changed too, but they have always existed.  Those who choose to ignore them, or use absurd tactics aren't going to be disuaded by a new rule.  Why is this so hard to understand?  They have never been playing RAW, why should they start because a new rule is concocted?

Also, we disproved the Rope Trick myth several weeks ago.  Please stop using it as a proof.  Rope Trick isn't even viable as a spell recovery resting spot until at least 8th level (in 3e).  Something is allowing the 5MWD tactic long before it becomes "unpreventable."  My guess is that "something" is the DM. 

So we agree that the old time wargamers don't get the basic premise of cooperative role-playing games, and pervert the rules.  Now we're getting somewhere.