..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />And Dwarfslayer is cleaving ninjas! Thats how I see this promlem (5MWD) I understand that people like it the way it is, but want a mechanical option for me so i don't have to use story solutions. Its just that simple.
My answer to that is: what if you needed neither story nor mechanical solutions?
Answering w/ question? classy :P
But no, that'd be fine.
My answer to that is: what if you needed neither story nor mechanical solutions?[/quote]Answering w/ question? classy :PBut no, that'd be fine.
hypothetical DM, not real, regarding Yagami's behavior of leading a conga line of monsters to kill the party if he';s a Fighter and doesn't feel like resting yet
Sorry but I'm just gunna put that out there. It isn't the DM's job to "punish" resting early.
Isn't one of the "story" solutions I keep getting told about when 5MWD gets brought up? Attack your party with monsters? If not, why is it whenever someone comes up with a safe way to rest(Rope Trick, Little Hut), they immediatly either start shouting it down or coming up with excuses of how the monsters will hurt them anyways? One solution I saw to countering Rope Trick was having a "random" Goblin Tribe war spring up right where the party was resting, and they fight each other with interdimensional fireballs that can hit stuff inside pocket dimensions. I would love for someone to say that's not contrived with a straight face.
your lucky I'm even bored enough to respond to this by the way...your post is kinda that whole petulance thing I am talking about.
Given a non **** DM why would you rest when you still have a bunch of awesome and incredibly useful powers left?
Because said DM followed advice people on here gave him and attacked the party for not having the sufficient number of rounds per day, so I'm staying prepared for the inevitable ambush by resting early with spells left.
And it's not unreasonable I still have spells left over at the end of the day. I'm not going to go out and pick a fight with nearby monsters after we get to the inn just because I have 2 fireballs and a web left in my prepared spells.
Story solutions doesn't mean attack your players all the time. You're either purposfully misrepresenting everything I have ever said, or are not able to grasp the core concept. If it is the former your a , if its the latter I'm not sure there is anything I can do to help you because it is a fairly simple core concept. The story fix is to provide plot points and viable reasons as to why sleeping is not the best option that is all. It can take multiple forms. I'm done giving examples because none of you care to even understand the underlying point...
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do. Even when it is hard and you should probably be sleeping (such as when you are sick) you still have to press on and get your responsibilities taken care of. There is no, "Time out I need to rest and recouperate.", not until you have done a ton of work, and even then you likely won't be resting as long as you should. Because there is stuff that needs doing. Its gunna happen weather or not your resting and there aint nothing you can do about that. Its true for a human its true for a squirrel its true for the ant and the grasshopper. No matter what you can't just sleep all the time because you need to get **** done. It is a fact of life. trying to say a game that is somewhat life simulating should work without that fact is bull. Trying to tell a story where that fact isn't amplified is going to produce a boring none to good story. This game doesn't work without a good story...I'm sorry the story telling game requires you to be good at telling stories...It's like the game requires some kind of skill to play or something.
Sorry this is gettin a little heated, but you guys are really starting to strain my nerve over this. It really is comming down to very few responses when we ask why your casting character feels the need to sleep all the time. We've already made it so you not doing it due to lack of castable spells. No matter what you still have at wills, rituals, and, unless your dumb, signature spells you can cast. So the crossbow wielding commoner argument is straight gone. We've all agreed there were broken spells in the past that were too good to not go forward with them ready to go, and we all agree that shouldn't be the case. We have all agreed that there were broken spells that made sleeping anywhere or any time too easy, and we all agree that shouldn't happen (even the devs have indicated their agreement with this). Seriously most of the responses to the why do you need to sleep so often question are starting to boil down to, "Why? because you, I can, thats why.", and if thats your reasoning for why you are sleeping then yeah I don't really care anymore because you're litterally doing it just to be a jerk, and no ammount of mechanics is going to stop you from being a jerk.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
Yet again I'm sorry this game requires some kind of skill to play it.
I'm not even against there being some mechanical restrictions in place that makes the behavior less prevalent. Stuff like: -increasing casting times of spells. -giving maintainable effects to spells that eat up action economy. both of those slow down the nova effect which greatly reduces the appeal of a 5mwd. -writing spells that aren't so good it would foolish to go without. making it easier to push the players forward without having to make super crazy intense motivations -making sure that everyone is running out of resources at a similar rate. -reducing the ammount of spells regained by resting (and putting this on a dial much like the optional health restoration rules)
I say those types of mechanical fixes are the best. That mingled with people not being festering a-holes at the table works perfectly. Now your story may fall apart from time to time, and thats okay. Failure is how we learn. You will never get better at the skills the game requires without a few failures. Just don't take it so hard when it happens...remember it is just a game. It isn't the end of the world if the campaign falls apart. Make a new one and start again. Learn from past mistakes and make yourself better at writting, storytelling, and a whole bunch of other things in the process.
hypothetical DM, not real, regarding Yagami's behavior of leading a conga line of monsters to kill the party if he';s a Fighter and doesn't feel like resting yetIsn't one of the "story" solutions I keep getting told about when 5MWD gets brought up? A
about mechanical solution, I think one of my posts was lost in that heated argument #1360 (last on page 135)
I proposed something about fatigue. Especially Garthanos, I'd like to know what you think about that stuff, it's in the same mindset as your thing about casting times and action economy. It's also a rehash of some older stuff that could be well used
about mechanical solution, I think one of my posts was lost in that heated argument#1360 (last on page 135)I proposed something about fatigue. Especially Garthanos, I'd like to know what you think about that stuff, it's in the same mindset as your th
At which point I, the Wizard, would simply Web you, Stone to Mud the dirt under you, make a steel wall, or any hundreds of possible spells to slow you down, then Rope Trick/teleport/any number of travel methods I have to get the rest of us out of there,
Pointed out the relevant word. I never said I had all those spells left, just a few, enough to stop a suicidal Fighter who's trying to get his party killed.
At the levels that you are talking about, spellcasters have enough spell slots to potentially push through mulitple encounters without having to resort to throwing darts/crossbows.
They do yes, but HP is also a major factor of when resting happens, and cure spells can keep it up a bit, they will wear out eventually.
Besides, once I have many spell slots, I'll always keep a few unused when possible, since you never know when you'll need a large wall of solid steel at a moment's notice.
You should have said that you were playing Schroedingers Wizard.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.
If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for "I have a 100% better spell fr that slot"
And once again this conundrum is solved by actually reading my post.Pointed out the relevant word. I never said I had all those spells left, just a few, enough to stop a suicidal Fighter who's trying to get his party killed.They do yes, but HP is als
about mechanical solution, I think one of my posts was lost in that heated argument #1360 (last on page 135)
I proposed something about fatigue. Especially Garthanos, I'd like to know what you think about that stuff, it's in the same mindset as your thing about casting times and action economy. It's also a rehash of some older stuff that could be well used
I suggest you swing it over to the mechanical solutions thread ... It needs more on-topic posts (I did notice it but was busy busy at the time) I think this thread is more for people to tell us we dont need what we want and how badly it breaks the DM vs Caster sub game they like to play.
I suggest you swing it over to the mechanical solutions thread ... It needs more on-topic posts (I did notice it but was busy busy at the time) I think this thread is more for people to tell us we dont need what we want and how badly it breaks the DM
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Story solutions doesn't mean attack your players all the time. You're either purposfully misrepresenting everything I have ever said, or are not able to grasp the core concept.
I'm going by the solution people keep giving us. If it's not the solution they intend, they need to stop suggesting it.
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do.
Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest? Plus if I have a good enough reason to take a break and get my resources back, why should I metagame and contrive a reason not to? "Well, we're mostly dead, all otu of spells, and I think Jim's actually dead. But we've only fought 5 rounds, so we need to go out and fight 15 more before we can rest."
There is no, "Time out I need to rest and recouperate.", not until you have done a ton of work, and even then you likely won't be resting as long as you should.
But not every story is a ticking time bomb that will wreck everything if you rest for a minute more than necessary. Forcing one on every story is not a solution some of us are willing to do because it constrains the types of stories we can use.
Because there is stuff that needs doing. Its gunna happen weather or not your resting and there aint nothing you can do about that.
Except there is't always something urgent that you need to be doing right now. Sometimes you're just looking through a ruin full of undead on your time off and rest more often to keep from getting overwheemed.
Sorry this is gettin a little heated, but you guys are really starting to strain my nerve over this. It really is comming down to very few responses when we ask why your casting character feels the need to sleep all the time.
"Because it's the most logical and intelligent decision from a character's point of view." sounds like a decent reason to me.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
No need to hurl insults. I can't even imagine how you got that from that quote. he means people don't want to have to constantly contrive awkward story reasons why the party can't rest when it's the most reasonable thing to do from the character's point of view.
That mingled with people not being festering a-holes at the table works perfectly.
You really need to chill if you want to continue being taken seriously.
I'm going by the solution people keep giving us. If it's not the solution they intend, they need to stop suggesting it.Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest? Plus if I have a good enough reason to take
Here's the ultimate joke of this whole situation: You have the problem. None of us willing to help you do. Not a one. Here's my proposition to every one that DOESN'T have the 5MWD problem. Let's start a thread and, in it, talk about what could be useful mechanical measures in the game. Anything. We'll spit ball. It'll be fun.
To everyone else who can't help but attack, mis-represent, outright lie, ignore and just generally act ridiculous...you still have the problem. And the best part is? The designers are not going to do anything about it. Ever. Period. Because it is not mechanically fixable.
The joke is on you. And you're pranking yourself.
Enjoy railing against the system you play with no desire to ever be self-critical. Enjoy getting into fights with other players about party balance. All in all, enjoy having less fun than you could because you refuse to fix a problem you are having.
Enjoy.
I'm going to start a new thread about useful stuff. I encourage those who do not worry about the 5MWD to join me. Will it be perfect? Nah, but at least, at this point, we know we can all discuss things on an even keel.
Let this be the end point, otherwise. Just quote this and add in a "This" at the end of the post and we'll go meet up in the other thread and brainstorm. Cool? Cool.
*sigh*There's no logic to be had.Solutions to problems are not good enough.Here's the ultimate joke of this whole situation: You have the problem. None of us willing to help you do. Not a one. Here's my proposition to every one that DOESN'T have the
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Story solutions doesn't mean attack your players all the time. You're either purposfully misrepresenting everything I have ever said, or are not able to grasp the core concept.
I'm going by the solution people keep giving us. If it's not the solution they intend, they need to stop suggesting it.
in no way has that been a suggestion that i have given...ever. That isn't how you motivate your players the tactic you keep mistakenly asserting we are giving you, that of always ambushing is just called being a d-bag. the only time people should be getting ambushed is if they sleep somewhere they would get attacked and even then only by chance.
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do.
Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest? Plus if I have a good enough reason to take a break and get my resources back, why should I metagame and contrive a reason not to? "Well, we're mostly dead, all otu of spells, and I think Jim's actually dead. But we've only fought 5 rounds, so we need to go out and fight 15 more before we can rest."
That sounds like a perfect time for them all to rest. I don't think anyone in the party would complain about them resting there. However the system says you can't because that was only a moderate difficulty encounter you don't have enough milestone points to rest and get back your resources (if you actually paid attention to my stances during this little debate and didn't just jump in in the middle you'd know this is one of the first flaws I pointed to in the milestone points system). I have no problem with the players choosing to rest whenever they feel it is nessesary I will let them know what the consequences of doing so will be but in cases like the outcome of that fight there...its time to switch up my game plan becuse they obviously need to rest (this is why I rarely use ticking clocks as they do not allow for switching things up like this).
There is no, "Time out I need to rest and recouperate.", not until you have done a ton of work, and even then you likely won't be resting as long as you should.
But not every story is a ticking time bomb that will wreck everything if you rest for a minute more than necessary. Forcing one on every story is not a solution some of us are willing to do because it constrains the types of stories we can use.
Because there is stuff that needs doing. Its gunna happen weather or not your resting and there aint nothing you can do about that.
Except there is't always something urgent that you need to be doing right now. Sometimes you're just looking through a ruin full of undead on your time off and rest more often to keep from getting overwheemed.
You do realize I was talking about real life there by the way not the game world.
Sorry this is gettin a little heated, but you guys are really starting to strain my nerve over this. It really is comming down to very few responses when we ask why your casting character feels the need to sleep all the time.
"Because it's the most logical and intelligent decision from a character's point of view." sounds like a decent reason to me.
provide the characters with reasons as to why it is not the most logical and intelligent decision.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
No need to hurl insults. I can't even imagine how you got that from that quote. he means people don't want to have to constantly contrive awkward story reasons why the party can't rest when it's the most reasonable thing to do from the character's point of view.
He litterally said he didn't want to find story reasons things happen. I'm guessing, since the sentence was improperly formed, that he ment finding story reasons why things happen. he litterally doesn't want to find a story reason for why things in the game are happening, and thats a bunch of bull because this is a story telling game
That mingled with people not being festering a-holes at the table works perfectly.
You really need to chill if you want to continue being taken seriously.
Hows about you guys not wildly misrepresenting what I'm saying. (also had a real bad morning and it put me in a sour mood for half the day so sorry bout that)
I'm going by the solution people keep giving us. If it's not the solution they intend, they need to stop suggesting it.[/quote]in no way has that been a suggestion that i have given...ever. That isn't how you motivate your players the tactic you kee
You should have said that you were playing Schroedingers Wizard.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.
If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for "I have a 100% better spell fr that slot"
I wonder which comes first, Schroedingers Wizard because you really do know every spell, or Schroedingers Wizard because you rest before each encounter?
You're going to be so dead as soon as I memorise the right spell
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for
You don't get; it has nothing to do with the chance to rest. It has to do with forcing a DM and players to follow a specific pace; that will restrict the DM's options.
I don't really see what you're saying. Could you give me an example of a DM option that's restricted? What adventure doesn't work?
I'll have to get back to you later; my cousin dropped off his kid... For some reason, he wants me to babysit the thing; he wants me to babysit again tomorrow. I hate kids; the thing just cuts into my time...
I don't really see what you're saying. Could you give me an example of a DM option that's restricted? What adventure doesn't work?[/quote]I'll have to get back to you later; my cousin dropped off his kid... For some reason, he wants me to babysit th
You should have said that you were playing Schroedingers Wizard.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.
If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for "I have a 100% better spell fr that slot"
I wonder which comes first, Schroedingers Wizard because you really do know every spell, or Schroedingers Wizard because you rest before each encounter?
You're going to be so dead as soon as I memorise the right spell
Except if I have a spell that can be useful in a very large number of situations, why WOULDN'T I always have at least one casting of it prepared? You keep seeming to insist I'm having the correct spell for the right situation every time, but all the spells I assume I have are spells with a very wide array of applications. Teleport and Rope Trick's uses are obvious, if I'm outside then Stone to Mud(and vice versa) may have uses, I can think of times when Wall of Steel would be handy(nothing stops a crowd faster than a wall suddenly blocking their path), etc. The fact you can't seem to realize that is on you, not me.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for
in no way has that been a suggestion that i have given...ever. That isn't how you motivate your players the tactic you keep mistakenly asserting we are giving you, that of always ambushing is just called being a d-bag. the only time people should be getting ambushed is if they sleep somewhere they would get attacked and even then only by chance.
Not you no, I have however seen some people advocating it as the prime example of "story motivation", so forgive me if I have a hard time taking the term seriously.
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do.
Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest? Plus if I have a good enough reason to take a break and get my resources back, why should I metagame and contrive a reason not to? "Well, we're mostly dead, all otu of spells, and I think Jim's actually dead. But we've only fought 5 rounds, so we need to go out and fight 15 more before we can rest."
That sounds like a perfect time for them all to rest. I don't think anyone in the party would complain about them resting there. However the system says you can't because that was only a moderate difficulty encounter you don't have enough milestone points to rest and get back your resources (if you actually paid attention to my stances during this little debate and didn't just jump in in the middle you'd know this is one of the first flaws I pointed to in the milestone points system). I have no problem with the players choosing to rest whenever they feel it is nessesary I will let them know what the consequences of doing so will be but in cases like the outcome of that fight there...its time to switch up my game plan becuse they obviously need to rest (this is why I rarely use ticking clocks as they do not allow for switching things up like this).
You do realize I was talking about real life there by the way not the game world.
Something that has no bearing on D&D. Examples tossed out.
provide the characters with reasons as to why it is not the most logical and intelligent decision.
And as I've said, usually the first answer I see is something along the lines of "You get ambushed at night "randomly"." or "The prince died because were too slow."
And this is still assuming the players realize he only died because of them and not because the plot demanded it. They can't tell unless the DM outright tells them.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
No need to hurl insults. I can't even imagine how you got that from that quote. he means people don't want to have to constantly contrive awkward story reasons why the party can't rest when it's the most reasonable thing to do from the character's point of view.
He litterally said he didn't want to find story reasons things happen. I'm guessing, since the sentence was improperly formed, that he ment finding story reasons why things happen. he litterally doesn't want to find a story reason for why things in the game are happening, and thats a bunch of bull because this is a story telling game
Hows about you guys not wildly misrepresenting what I'm saying. (also had a real bad morning and it put me in a sour mood for half the day so sorry bout that)
Eh, it happens. I'll probably be cranky on Tuesday and Thurday due to my classes needing me at school at 6:30 in the morning, but that's then.
Not you no, I have however seen some people advocating it as the prime example of "story motivation", so forgive me if I have a hard time taking the term seriously.Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest
Here's the ultimate joke of this whole situation: You have the problem. None of us willing to help you do. Not a one. Here's my proposition to every one that DOESN'T have the 5MWD problem. Let's start a thread and, in it, talk about what could be useful mechanical measures in the game. Anything. We'll spit ball. It'll be fun.
There's already a topic for it, specificaly called Mechanical Discussions for 5MWD. Of course at this point in there, people who don't have a problem showed up and started insisting on story solutions, so once again the people who don't have a problem seem keen on keeping the ones who do have the problem from coming to any solution.
To everyone else who can't help but attack, mis-represent, outright lie, ignore and just generally act ridiculous...you still have the problem. And the best part is? The designers are not going to do anything about it. Ever. Period. Because it is not mechanically fixable.
The fact people HAVE come up with reasonable and optional mechanical solutins already shows it is. Or taking out daily resources period is another mechnical solution.
And do you insist the developers won't do anything about it ever? Yes, it is a problem some people are having, but it's a problem people are having. Why do you have a problem with there being a mechanical and completely optional module for this problem that you never have to even look at?
There's already a topic for it, specificaly called Mechanical Discussions for 5MWD. Of course at this point in there, people who don't have a problem showed up and started insisting on story solutions, so once again the people who don't have a proble
in no way has that been a suggestion that i have given...ever. That isn't how you motivate your players the tactic you keep mistakenly asserting we are giving you, that of always ambushing is just called being a d-bag. the only time people should be getting ambushed is if they sleep somewhere they would get attacked and even then only by chance.
Not you no, I have however seen some people advocating it as the prime example of "story motivation", so forgive me if I have a hard time taking the term seriously.
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do.
Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest? Plus if I have a good enough reason to take a break and get my resources back, why should I metagame and contrive a reason not to? "Well, we're mostly dead, all otu of spells, and I think Jim's actually dead. But we've only fought 5 rounds, so we need to go out and fight 15 more before we can rest."
That sounds like a perfect time for them all to rest. I don't think anyone in the party would complain about them resting there. However the system says you can't because that was only a moderate difficulty encounter you don't have enough milestone points to rest and get back your resources (if you actually paid attention to my stances during this little debate and didn't just jump in in the middle you'd know this is one of the first flaws I pointed to in the milestone points system). I have no problem with the players choosing to rest whenever they feel it is nessesary I will let them know what the consequences of doing so will be but in cases like the outcome of that fight there...its time to switch up my game plan becuse they obviously need to rest (this is why I rarely use ticking clocks as they do not allow for switching things up like this).
You do realize I was talking about real life there by the way not the game world.
Something that has no bearing on D&D. Examples tossed out.
provide the characters with reasons as to why it is not the most logical and intelligent decision.
And as I've said, usually the first answer I see is something along the lines of "You get ambushed at night "randomly"." or "The prince died because were too slow."
And this is still assuming the players realize he only died because of them and not because the plot demanded it. They can't tell unless the DM outright tells them.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
No need to hurl insults. I can't even imagine how you got that from that quote. he means people don't want to have to constantly contrive awkward story reasons why the party can't rest when it's the most reasonable thing to do from the character's point of view.
He litterally said he didn't want to find story reasons things happen. I'm guessing, since the sentence was improperly formed, that he ment finding story reasons why things happen. he litterally doesn't want to find a story reason for why things in the game are happening, and thats a bunch of bull because this is a story telling game
Hows about you guys not wildly misrepresenting what I'm saying. (also had a real bad morning and it put me in a sour mood for half the day so sorry bout that)
Eh, it happens. I'll probably be cranky on Tuesday and Thurday due to my classes needing me at school at 6:30 in the morning, but that's then.
by the way the reference to the real world I made is entirely applicable to the story telling in D&D... D&D is a fantasy story telling game. A good fantasy story is used to examine life in the real world by presenting a distorted mirror of the real world where some things are changed...I suppose you could change the needing to get stuff done fact of life to not exist but that is a terribly boring story. Most stories in fact make it an expressed point to accentuate and amplify that fact of life so as to build drama.
Not you no, I have however seen some people advocating it as the prime example of "story motivation", so forgive me if I have a hard time taking the term seriously.Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest
But there's a major difference between me doing the smart thing and not sleeping all day because I have school and stuff, and my character doing the smart thing and exploring undead ruins a little at a time because he doesn't want to die.
But there's a major difference between me doing the smart thing and not sleeping all day because I have school and stuff, and my character doing the smart thing and exploring undead ruins a little at a time because he doesn't want to die.
But there's a major difference between me doing the smart thing and not sleeping all day because I have school and stuff, and my character doing the smart thing and exploring undead ruins a little at a time because he doesn't want to die.
Not really...Same basic premise**** needs to get done. Your character still needs to eat, and you won't always have the supplies to keep resting around the ruins. There are a million concerns and resting the day away only exacerbates that. Most of the time. Sometimes it is fine to have an exploration where the characters can sort of take their time, but even then they have limited supplies, and that will be on all the character's minds. That is the reason they don't 1 and done every day...because pressing on and exploring as much as you can is preferrable so you don't waste precious supplies.
edit:like all other things i mention as being a reason this is one in a myriad of things that can apply to various situations, but likely not all.
Not really...Same basic premise**** needs to get done. Your character still needs to eat, and you won't always have the supplies to keep resting around the ruins. There are a million concerns and resting the day away only exacerbates that. Most of
Okay, so 140 pages in, I doubt I'll change anyone's mind. But summarizing: 1) daily refresh has historically helped fuel caster dominance 2) daily refresh can lead to inter party conflict if the non-daily users want to press on. 3) daily refresh can struggle with multiday treks punctuated by danger, and sandbox games. 4) not everyone has experienced the problems above. 5) many who have experienced the above have successfully fixed them through a variety of means
As for what kind of pacing is difficult, multiday treks that feel dangerous can be difficult to pull off. I may want the party to walk through the dismal swamp to the shining city. I might have a ruins in there which they'll pass, in which they have the promise of exciting treasure, and tremendous danger. If I have a milestone system, they are genre savvy enough to know the scene will end when they reach the shining city. I hit them with monsters on days 1,3,5, and 6. When they reach the ruins on day 9, they have an interesting choice. Compare that to a daily system: after each day, they refresh. So, the looming danger of the Ruins goes away. Now, many people will try to help fix this, and there are tricks to help. One suggestion from the forum is to convert the swamp to milestone by telling the players that they can't deeply rest ( code for refresh dailies ) in the swamp. As a dm, you can also move your encounters all to the day of the ruins, and leave the rest of the days uneventful. The general solutions for 5mwd don't really work for overland travel - the general advice is "add a ticking time bomb" or "be a better dm" or "have things happen off screen". Maybe there's a way to make those solutions work, but it seems hard - the trip will take 2 weeks one way or another, so time based story solutions don't really work, I'd think. Maybe someone can come up with something clever including forced marches?
Now,it's the Internet so we can argue forever about whether milestones are better than dailies in general, or whether they are better for the above scenario. But, my recommendation for Wotc is to include both a daily refresh (for grognards) and a milestone (for newer players). That way everyone can choose what's right for them.
Okay, so 140 pages in, I doubt I'll change anyone's mind. But summarizing:1) daily refresh has historically helped fuel caster dominance2) daily refresh can lead to inter party conflict if the non-daily users want to press on. 3) daily refresh can
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're w
Btw, as a player of FATE, I love milestone based systems. The fate point system would be much much Much too powerful if sleeping to refresh points was an option. So, I'm excited to dm d&d with milestones. But, I can see that there'd need to be some modification for those who like the "press your luck" aspect that dailies provide.
Btw, as a player of FATE, I love milestone based systems. The fate point system would be much much Much too powerful if sleeping to refresh points was an option. So, I'm excited to dm d&d with milestones. But, I can see that there'd need to be s
resting and recouping resources shouldn't do this. The characters have no idea what is going to happen to them, and cannot know that being restored via resting will save them from the unknown horrors in their surroundings.
however if it does I recently had an idea for reducing the number of spells you can recoup per day. so that resting for multiple days is required to recoup the full list. that way you should be on an ever shortning set of resources.
resting and recouping resources shouldn't do this. The characters have no idea what is going to happen to them, and cannot know that being restored via resting will save them from the unknown horrors in their surroundings.however if it does I recent
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
At which point I start using Rope Trick to rest without an entire day's worth of of monsters being able to hurt me.
And if the DM has a habit of ambushing you during every rest, why wouldn't you want to have spells left when you go to rest?
Rope trick is easy. I could have a lot of fun with a party that uses Rope trick all the time.
Let me guess, Goblins that somehow know how to shoot interdimensional fireballs despite never ever having a need for them?
No its probably extra dimensional beings that randomly happen to wander onto the party. Of course no one explains how they got a hold of a dimension shifting power or magic item since the Rope Trick is in a pocket dimension and not another random dimension.
Rope trick is easy. I could have a lot of fun with a party that uses Rope trick all the time.[/quote]Let me guess, Goblins that somehow know how to shoot interdimensional fireballs despite never ever having a need for them?[/quote]No its probably ex
At which point I start using Rope Trick to rest without an entire day's worth of of monsters being able to hurt me.
And if the DM has a habit of ambushing you during every rest, why wouldn't you want to have spells left when you go to rest?
Rope trick is easy. I could have a lot of fun with a party that uses Rope trick all the time.
Let me guess, Goblins that somehow know how to shoot interdimensional fireballs despite never ever having a need for them?
To be honest, if your mage has got to a level where he can cast Web, Stone to Mud and Steel wall as well as Rope Trick and teleport, then you most likely are not just fighting Goblins anymore.
But if you especially wanted to just fight Goblins for their rich rich hoard of 10gp, 120 sp and a bag of rats then who am I to try and stop you?
Hey in 3.5 a bag of rats is worth its weight in platinum. For some reasons Fighters buy them up like crazy.
Rope trick is easy. I could have a lot of fun with a party that uses Rope trick all the time.[/quote]Let me guess, Goblins that somehow know how to shoot interdimensional fireballs despite never ever having a need for them?[/quote]To be honest, if y
Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Utilities not used in the heat of the moment are called rituals.. and dont tap you out. There is still resource management going on..
Or perhaps I am adding to the idea
Plus I am quite inclined to use action points in manner closer to 4e where they are bait which encourages pressing on and fuel to allow potency while doing so. They integrate nicely with action economy limited casting.
Oh and milestones are triggered by any significant encounter not just combats... so the utility mage is probably doing fine if the occasions for most of that are "encounters"
Utilities not used in the heat of the moment are called rituals.. and dont tap you out. There is still resource management going on..Or perhaps I am adding to the ideaPlus I am quite inclined to use action points in manner closer to 4e where they are
At which point I, the Wizard, would simply Web you, Stone to Mud the dirt under you, make a steel wall, or any hundreds of possible spells to slow you down, then Rope Trick/teleport/any number of travel methods I have to get the rest of us out of there,
Pointed out the relevant word. I never said I had all those spells left, just a few, enough to stop a suicidal Fighter who's trying to get his party killed.
At the levels that you are talking about, spellcasters have enough spell slots to potentially push through mulitple encounters without having to resort to throwing darts/crossbows.
They do yes, but HP is also a major factor of when resting happens, and cure spells can keep it up a bit, they will wear out eventually.
Besides, once I have many spell slots, I'll always keep a few unused when possible, since you never know when you'll need a large wall of solid steel at a moment's notice.
You should have said that you were playing Schroedingers Wizard.
It doesn't take schroedingers Wizard. All it takes is a couple of spells that didn't find a use during the day. For instance if you had Burning Hands memorized, but went up against a fire elemental. Its unlikely that you would have used it.
And once again this conundrum is solved by actually reading my post.Pointed out the relevant word. I never said I had all those spells left, just a few, enough to stop a suicidal Fighter who's trying to get his party killed.They do yes, but HP is als
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />And Dwarfslayer is cleaving ninjas! Thats how I see this promlem (5MWD) I understand that people like it the way it is, but want a mechanical option for me so i don't have to use story solutions. Its just that simple.
My answer to that is: what if you needed neither story nor mechanical solutions?
Answering w/ question? classy :P
But no, that'd be fine.
We've already established that Yagami's players don't use the five minute work day because their play style of fast advancement precludes it.
So yes, some people won't encounter it because it goes against their play style and the reason they are playing.
Others will try to use it whenever possible because their players play style encourages it. In my case the strategic advantage of having more and better options in combat will push my players to at least consider the five minute work day when they are deciding on a course of action.
My answer to that is: what if you needed neither story nor mechanical solutions?[/quote]Answering w/ question? classy :PBut no, that'd be fine.[/quote]We've already established that Yagami's players don't use the five minute work day because their pl
hypothetical DM, not real, regarding Yagami's behavior of leading a conga line of monsters to kill the party if he';s a Fighter and doesn't feel like resting yet
Sorry but I'm just gunna put that out there. It isn't the DM's job to "punish" resting early.
Isn't one of the "story" solutions I keep getting told about when 5MWD gets brought up? Attack your party with monsters? If not, why is it whenever someone comes up with a safe way to rest(Rope Trick, Little Hut), they immediatly either start shouting it down or coming up with excuses of how the monsters will hurt them anyways? One solution I saw to countering Rope Trick was having a "random" Goblin Tribe war spring up right where the party was resting, and they fight each other with interdimensional fireballs that can hit stuff inside pocket dimensions. I would love for someone to say that's not contrived with a straight face.
your lucky I'm even bored enough to respond to this by the way...your post is kinda that whole petulance thing I am talking about.
Given a non **** DM why would you rest when you still have a bunch of awesome and incredibly useful powers left?
Because said DM followed advice people on here gave him and attacked the party for not having the sufficient number of rounds per day, so I'm staying prepared for the inevitable ambush by resting early with spells left.
And it's not unreasonable I still have spells left over at the end of the day. I'm not going to go out and pick a fight with nearby monsters after we get to the inn just because I have 2 fireballs and a web left in my prepared spells.
Story solutions doesn't mean attack your players all the time. You're either purposfully misrepresenting everything I have ever said, or are not able to grasp the core concept. If it is the former your a , if its the latter I'm not sure there is anything I can do to help you because it is a fairly simple core concept. The story fix is to provide plot points and viable reasons as to why sleeping is not the best option that is all. It can take multiple forms. I'm done giving examples because none of you care to even understand the underlying point...
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do. Even when it is hard and you should probably be sleeping (such as when you are sick) you still have to press on and get your responsibilities taken care of. There is no, "Time out I need to rest and recouperate.", not until you have done a ton of work, and even then you likely won't be resting as long as you should. Because there is stuff that needs doing. Its gunna happen weather or not your resting and there aint nothing you can do about that. Its true for a human its true for a squirrel its true for the ant and the grasshopper. No matter what you can't just sleep all the time because you need to get **** done. It is a fact of life. trying to say a game that is somewhat life simulating should work without that fact is bull. Trying to tell a story where that fact isn't amplified is going to produce a boring none to good story. This game doesn't work without a good story...I'm sorry the story telling game requires you to be good at telling stories...It's like the game requires some kind of skill to play or something.
Sorry this is gettin a little heated, but you guys are really starting to strain my nerve over this. It really is comming down to very few responses when we ask why your casting character feels the need to sleep all the time. We've already made it so you not doing it due to lack of castable spells. No matter what you still have at wills, rituals, and, unless your dumb, signature spells you can cast. So the crossbow wielding commoner argument is straight gone. We've all agreed there were broken spells in the past that were too good to not go forward with them ready to go, and we all agree that shouldn't be the case. We have all agreed that there were broken spells that made sleeping anywhere or any time too easy, and we all agree that shouldn't happen (even the devs have indicated their agreement with this). Seriously most of the responses to the why do you need to sleep so often question are starting to boil down to, "Why? because you, I can, thats why.", and if thats your reasoning for why you are sleeping then yeah I don't really care anymore because you're litterally doing it just to be a jerk, and no ammount of mechanics is going to stop you from being a jerk.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
Yet again I'm sorry this game requires some kind of skill to play it.
I'm not even against there being some mechanical restrictions in place that makes the behavior less prevalent. Stuff like: -increasing casting times of spells. -giving maintainable effects to spells that eat up action economy. both of those slow down the nova effect which greatly reduces the appeal of a 5mwd. -writing spells that aren't so good it would foolish to go without. making it easier to push the players forward without having to make super crazy intense motivations -making sure that everyone is running out of resources at a similar rate. -reducing the ammount of spells regained by resting (and putting this on a dial much like the optional health restoration rules)
I say those types of mechanical fixes are the best. That mingled with people not being festering a-holes at the table works perfectly. Now your story may fall apart from time to time, and thats okay. Failure is how we learn. You will never get better at the skills the game requires without a few failures. Just don't take it so hard when it happens...remember it is just a game. It isn't the end of the world if the campaign falls apart. Make a new one and start again. Learn from past mistakes and make yourself better at writting, storytelling, and a whole bunch of other things in the process.
Not everyone plays for a good story. Some people play for advancement (Yagami's players), some play for role playing, others play for the tactical thinking (my players), others do play for the story.
That aside if you are not attacking your players when they try the five minute work day and are in fact rolling on the random encounter chart, then that means there will be occasions when they do successfully rest and recover daily spells and resources. In that case you aren't preventing the five minute work day at all. Which leads us to the fact that if it isn't prevented by the story in all cases then it, by logical processes, must be a mechanical issue.
Most of the reasons why characters abuse the five minute work day is because in character they want to be at full power as often as possible. Its not a s***w you proposition. Its a "we will have a better chance at the next encounter" one. Its basic logic.
Some people don't have the time to write complicated involved stories. Others don't care for those kinds of stories. Others don't care to play a game of counter the casters when it comes to trying to rest too often.
Not everyone has or can obtain the skills to write extremely good stories.
hypothetical DM, not real, regarding Yagami's behavior of leading a conga line of monsters to kill the party if he';s a Fighter and doesn't feel like resting yetIsn't one of the "story" solutions I keep getting told about when 5MWD gets brought up? A
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Story solutions doesn't mean attack your players all the time. You're either purposfully misrepresenting everything I have ever said, or are not able to grasp the core concept.
I'm going by the solution people keep giving us. If it's not the solution they intend, they need to stop suggesting it.
in no way has that been a suggestion that i have given...ever. That isn't how you motivate your players the tactic you keep mistakenly asserting we are giving you, that of always ambushing is just called being a d-bag. the only time people should be getting ambushed is if they sleep somewhere they would get attacked and even then only by chance.
The reason sleeping between every encounter isn't the best option is the same reason sleeping all day isn't the best option in real life...Because you have better things you could be doing, or important things you need to do.
Why does everyone continue to assume you do nothing but sleep the entire extended rest? Plus if I have a good enough reason to take a break and get my resources back, why should I metagame and contrive a reason not to? "Well, we're mostly dead, all otu of spells, and I think Jim's actually dead. But we've only fought 5 rounds, so we need to go out and fight 15 more before we can rest."
That sounds like a perfect time for them all to rest. I don't think anyone in the party would complain about them resting there. However the system says you can't because that was only a moderate difficulty encounter you don't have enough milestone points to rest and get back your resources (if you actually paid attention to my stances during this little debate and didn't just jump in in the middle you'd know this is one of the first flaws I pointed to in the milestone points system). I have no problem with the players choosing to rest whenever they feel it is nessesary I will let them know what the consequences of doing so will be but in cases like the outcome of that fight there...its time to switch up my game plan becuse they obviously need to rest (this is why I rarely use ticking clocks as they do not allow for switching things up like this).
There is no, "Time out I need to rest and recouperate.", not until you have done a ton of work, and even then you likely won't be resting as long as you should.
But not every story is a ticking time bomb that will wreck everything if you rest for a minute more than necessary. Forcing one on every story is not a solution some of us are willing to do because it constrains the types of stories we can use.
Because there is stuff that needs doing. Its gunna happen weather or not your resting and there aint nothing you can do about that.
Except there is't always something urgent that you need to be doing right now. Sometimes you're just looking through a ruin full of undead on your time off and rest more often to keep from getting overwheemed.
You do realize I was talking about real life there by the way not the game world.
Sorry this is gettin a little heated, but you guys are really starting to strain my nerve over this. It really is comming down to very few responses when we ask why your casting character feels the need to sleep all the time.
"Because it's the most logical and intelligent decision from a character's point of view." sounds like a decent reason to me.
provide the characters with reasons as to why it is not the most logical and intelligent decision.
On the other side when we ask, "Whats wrong with having to write a good story that motivates the players?". we get answers like:
Many of us want simple effective rules so we don't have to tell our players no or come up with story reasons things happen.
which almost outright says, "I don't want to have to think of a story"...and I'm sorry but just straight up no to that. This is a story telling game. It requires a story and a halfway decent one at that.
No need to hurl insults. I can't even imagine how you got that from that quote. he means people don't want to have to constantly contrive awkward story reasons why the party can't rest when it's the most reasonable thing to do from the character's point of view.
He litterally said he didn't want to find story reasons things happen. I'm guessing, since the sentence was improperly formed, that he ment finding story reasons why things happen. he litterally doesn't want to find a story reason for why things in the game are happening, and thats a bunch of bull because this is a story telling game
That mingled with people not being festering a-holes at the table works perfectly.
You really need to chill if you want to continue being taken seriously.
Hows about you guys not wildly misrepresenting what I'm saying. (also had a real bad morning and it put me in a sour mood for half the day so sorry bout that)
If you only get attacked by chance, then there will be times when the group doesn't get attacked. Thus the five minute work day is not prevented in all cases and going by statistics in just over half the cases.
You didn't take the time to read up on the mile stone point system that was suggested. You can use whatever points you have gathered in order to gain a portion of your spells back. It also is based on how hard the encounter is. If you lose a character, several more go down, and you are almost out of spells and hit points, I'd have to say that should be counted as a hard encounter. Which means you can get 3/8ths of your resources back, or the other variations where you divide the time by the 3 points you gained allowing recovery of several low level spells in a relatively short time.
Mainly the problem with your solutions are that they require skills that not everyone has or can learn. Some don't have the time to exercise those skills.
We need a solution that can be applied universally. That means it must be a mechanical solution.
I'm going by the solution people keep giving us. If it's not the solution they intend, they need to stop suggesting it.[/quote]in no way has that been a suggestion that i have given...ever. That isn't how you motivate your players the tactic you kee
You don't get; it has nothing to do with the chance to rest. It has to do with forcing a DM and players to follow a specific pace; that will restrict the DM's options.
I don't really see what you're saying. Could you give me an example of a DM option that's restricted? What adventure doesn't work?
I'll have to get back to you later; my cousin dropped off his kid... For some reason, he wants me to babysit the thing; he wants me to babysit again tomorrow. I hate kids; the thing just cuts into my time...
Wow, you are going to make a wonderful parent some day.
I don't really see what you're saying. Could you give me an example of a DM option that's restricted? What adventure doesn't work?[/quote]I'll have to get back to you later; my cousin dropped off his kid... For some reason, he wants me to babysit th
You should have said that you were playing Schroedingers Wizard.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.
If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for "I have a 100% better spell fr that slot"
I wonder which comes first, Schroedingers Wizard because you really do know every spell, or Schroedingers Wizard because you rest before each encounter?
You're going to be so dead as soon as I memorise the right spell
Except if I have a spell that can be useful in a very large number of situations, why WOULDN'T I always have at least one casting of it prepared? You keep seeming to insist I'm having the correct spell for the right situation every time, but all the spells I assume I have are spells with a very wide array of applications. Teleport and Rope Trick's uses are obvious, if I'm outside then Stone to Mud(and vice versa) may have uses, I can think of times when Wall of Steel would be handy(nothing stops a crowd faster than a wall suddenly blocking their path), etc. The fact you can't seem to realize that is on you, not me.
My personal favorite is Wall of Force and Cloud Kill. There are very few instances where that isn't useful.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were speakign about Narrowminded Wizard who never prepares a spell that is useful in more than one situation.If I ahd the spells, I can't think a reason I would never prepare Rope Trick, Web, Wall of Steel, etc, except for
Here's the ultimate joke of this whole situation: You have the problem. None of us willing to help you do. Not a one. Here's my proposition to every one that DOESN'T have the 5MWD problem. Let's start a thread and, in it, talk about what could be useful mechanical measures in the game. Anything. We'll spit ball. It'll be fun.
There's already a topic for it, specificaly called Mechanical Discussions for 5MWD. Of course at this point in there, people who don't have a problem showed up and started insisting on story solutions, so once again the people who don't have a problem seem keen on keeping the ones who do have the problem from coming to any solution.
To everyone else who can't help but attack, mis-represent, outright lie, ignore and just generally act ridiculous...you still have the problem. And the best part is? The designers are not going to do anything about it. Ever. Period. Because it is not mechanically fixable.
The fact people HAVE come up with reasonable and optional mechanical solutins already shows it is. Or taking out daily resources period is another mechnical solution.
And do you insist the developers won't do anything about it ever? Yes, it is a problem some people are having, but it's a problem people are having. Why do you have a problem with there being a mechanical and completely optional module for this problem that you never have to even look at?
Actually the developers said they will work on anything that comes up with more than 10% in the bad on the play test surveys. Since 25% of people have problems with this, it is likely to get addressed.
There's already a topic for it, specificaly called Mechanical Discussions for 5MWD. Of course at this point in there, people who don't have a problem showed up and started insisting on story solutions, so once again the people who don't have a proble
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Most of the reasons why characters abuse the five minute work day is because in character they want to be at full power as often as possible. Its not a s***w you proposition. Its a "we will have a better chance at the next encounter" one. Its basic logic.
Some people don't have the time to write complicated involved stories. Others don't care for those kinds of stories. Others don't care to play a game of counter the casters when it comes to trying to rest too often.
Not everyone has or can obtain the skills to write extremely good stories.
They're not even complicated or good stories, they're just formulaic stories. It's pretty much "Always include some kind of ticking clock, no exceptions."
It's pretty much equivalent to countering 3E shivering touch spell by designing adventures where all your boss monsters are creatures with cold immunity.
It's just a DM-crafted crutch to help support bad game design.
They're not even complicated or good stories, they're just formulaic stories. It's pretty much "Always include some kind of ticking clock, no exceptions." It's pretty much equivalent to countering 3E shivering touch spell by designing adventures wher
No its probably extra dimensional beings that randomly happen to wander onto the party. Of course no one explains how they got a hold of a dimension shifting power or magic item since the Rope Trick is in a pocket dimension and not another random dimension.
Well it would realy depend on what exactly the party was doing at the time.
In Englishs example he was fighting Goblins, so no they most probably do not have extra dimensional abilities, but with Goblins I would have them attacking the party in waves so that you basically had a whole days worth of encounters at one time. Then when the party rests it is because they are totally tapped out and not because they have lost one spell and need to memorise it.
But certainly at higher levels, and especially if the party has started to make a name for themselves, you would expect any BBEG with a high intelligence to be aware of spells like Rope Trcik and to be prepared to deal with parties that use it. It is not only common sense but it is the logical thing to do.
Well it would realy depend on what exactly the party was doing at the time.In Englishs example he was fighting Goblins, so no they most probably do not have extra dimensional abilities, but with Goblins I would have them attacking the party in waves
In Englishs example he was fighting Goblins, so no they most probably do not have extra dimensional abilities, but with Goblins I would have them attacking the party in waves so that you basically had a whole days worth of encounters at one time. Then when the party rests it is because they are totally tapped out and not because they have lost one spell and need to memorise it.
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the goblins had some kind of caster that could use one, even searching something as simple as a 2 mile radius around their lair with a spell that only lasts a few minutes and "sees" only 60 ft at a time is going to be pretty mcuh impossible, so setting up some kind of ambush on the rope trick just isn't very likely.
As far as pulling the dungeon on them, well wouldn't that just be the goblin's default security protocol? Why does it change because the party is using rope trick?
But certainly at higher levels, and especially if the party has started to make a name for themselves, you would expect any BBEG with a high intelligence to be aware of spells like Rope Trcik and to be prepared to deal with parties that use it. It is not only common sense but it is the logical thing to do.
The problem is that there's really not a good way to be prepared. Even if you know your enemies use rope trick, it doesn't help you much, because there's not any easy way to locate it.
The only real "counter" is just having good security protocols that involve pulling your dungeon on a group of intruders, but really, why wouldn't you just have that protocol in place from the start? Dungeons are designed to be fortified lairs and the D&D world is a dangerous one, so it makes little sense to me that monsters would start out wtih a lax security protocol at all.
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the gobli
You don't get; it has nothing to do with the chance to rest. It has to do with forcing a DM and players to follow a specific pace; that will restrict the DM's options.
I don't really see what you're saying. Could you give me an example of a DM option that's restricted? What adventure doesn't work?
I'll have to get back to you later; my cousin dropped off his kid... For some reason, he wants me to babysit the thing; he wants me to babysit again tomorrow. I hate kids; the thing just cuts into my time...
Okay, back. No kids Well, not til later today.
One adventure that comes to mind is an adventure I ran for a group a decade ago... Man, I'm getting old...
The adventure entailed a kidnapping that the players witness firsthand. Being an upstanding group (I knew they would take the bait because I knew the group), they attempted to intervene. However, the premise of the adventure required them to fail at the intervention despite burning most of the their daily resources. Having "lost" the fight, the party (which really thrived on overcoming challenges like this) set off to pursuit the bad guys.
I can detail how a milestone would have failed this design later on; however, the problem with the milestone system is that it would not allow a party to rest after such an encounter. The DM, by virtue of the system, would be forced into a narrower encounter difficulty bracket and limiting the DM's ability to vary adventure structure. While I do not, as a general guideline, do exceptionally hard encounters like this, I do use them at times to vary the pacing structure of an adventure.
I don't really see what you're saying. Could you give me an example of a DM option that's restricted? What adventure doesn't work?[/quote]I'll have to get back to you later; my cousin dropped off his kid... For some reason, he wants me to babysit th
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Oh and milestones are triggered by any significant encounter not just combats... so the utility mage is probably doing fine if the occasions for most of that are "encounters"
another excelent addition mechanically though that skews the trying to explain why you can prep faster now thing... I dislike it if there isn't some way to justify in game why the prep takes less time because that develops an inconsistent narative.
another excelent addition mechanically though that skews the trying to explain why you can prep faster now thing... I dislike it if there isn't some way to justify in game why the prep takes less time because that develops an inconsistent narative.
In Englishs example he was fighting Goblins, so no they most probably do not have extra dimensional abilities, but with Goblins I would have them attacking the party in waves so that you basically had a whole days worth of encounters at one time. Then when the party rests it is because they are totally tapped out and not because they have lost one spell and need to memorise it.
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the goblins had some kind of caster that could use one, even searching something as simple as a 2 mile radius around their lair with a spell that only lasts a few minutes and "sees" only 60 ft at a time is going to be pretty mcuh impossible, so setting up some kind of ambush on the rope trick just isn't very likely.
As far as pulling the dungeon on them, well wouldn't that just be the goblin's default security protocol? Why does it change because the party is using rope trick?
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
But certainly at higher levels, and especially if the party has started to make a name for themselves, you would expect any BBEG with a high intelligence to be aware of spells like Rope Trcik and to be prepared to deal with parties that use it. It is not only common sense but it is the logical thing to do.
The problem is that there's really not a good way to be prepared. Even if you know your enemies use rope trick, it doesn't help you much, because there's not any easy way to locate it.
The only real "counter" is just having good security protocols that involve pulling your dungeon on a group of intruders, but really, why wouldn't you just have that protocol in place from the start? Dungeons are designed to be fortified lairs and the D&D world is a dangerous one, so it makes little sense to me that monsters would start out wtih a lax security protocol at all.
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the gobli
Rather a problem with rope trick, than with the core?
A problem with any safe haven spell that allows you to rest. An extended mass, sanctuary spell cast by a druid that lasted 24 hours would have the same effect except they could camp right in the middle of the goblins while they were dining and nothing would happen.
A problem with any safe haven spell that allows you to rest. An extended mass, sanctuary spell cast by a druid that lasted 24 hours would have the same effect except they could camp right in the middle of the goblins while they were dining and nothin
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
It has been out there for awhile, but to be fair it was in the Mechanical Solutions thread.
It still has the problem of long trips, but they could just say that they aren't waiting around for 4-6 hours while the casters memorize and that they can't memorize while sleeping 6-8 hours.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Oh and milestones are triggered by any significant encounter not just combats... so the utility mage is probably doing fine if the occasions for most of that are "encounters"
another excelent addition mechanically though that skews the trying to explain why you can prep faster now thing... I dislike it if there isn't some way to justify in game why the prep takes less time because that develops an inconsistent narative.
One suggestion was that wisps of magic cling to creatures and the things they put value in like traps and homes. Thus the caster is able to gather these wisps of energy and use them to speed up the preparation time, otherwise they have to use the natural magic level that is around everywhere and take a lot of time to store up enough energy to memorize a spell.
another excelent addition mechanically though that skews the trying to explain why you can prep faster now thing... I dislike it if there isn't some way to justify in game why the prep takes less time because that develops an inconsistent narative.[
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
It has been out there for awhile, but to be fair it was in the Mechanical Solutions thread.
It still has the problem of long trips, but they could just say that they aren't waiting around for 4-6 hours while the casters memorize and that they can't memorize while sleeping 6-8 hours.
Oh I will admit I totally missed this. I'm gunna entirely blame people that kept trying to argue a point this system has already conceded to and then fixed the actual problem with (with a fix I had agreed to/helped suggest long ago no less). Heck if you wanted to make it a tad harsher you could just straight limit the number of spell levels a caster can prep per day kinda like if you're using alternative HP recouperation rules you can only get a certain ammount of health back per day(only seems fair and is entirely sensible).
On the topic of travel adventures I personally have less of a problem with that...to me the 1 off attacks on the road are the time to show that everyone's powerful. I always feel bad for the attacking highwaymen you'd think they know how to spot someone they shouldn't rob better than that (just a joke I'm aware othe stuff attacks too). Especially if the attacks have nothing to do with any kind of over arching campagin or anything or are only barely connected (killin off mooks). Though tips in the encounter design sections on how to design encounters so that mundanes can shine along side casters would be required (it is possible without drilling a bunch of combats into one day but only barely). Also nothing stops a mini adventure from taking place along the way (where you do have full up days).
I do think it does help that in travel adventures supplies and feed become things that should be tracked. If you're travelling for 10 days straight before your next possible resupply gathering supplies is an important task, and considering those supplies are not infinite one should not expect to be able to take however long they like on the road. Although the smart adventurer plans for at least 3-4 extra days on the road, for whatever reasons that could arise to slow them down. At that point you could think of the supplies as a mechanical note. Every time they pass a certain period of time ( maybe 4 hours) check off a box in the supplies section. Buying a days worth of supplies gets you maybe 6 boxes in the supplies section (maybe change those numbers a bit). This is just a rough idea.
Quick question do they always have to reprepare their whole list every day or do spells already prepared last through sleeping.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off d
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
Detect magic doesn't reveal it, meaning it doesn't make it visable, but it sure as heck detects the magic in the area. You know something magical is within the area. You just can't see it. Heck you know it is transmutation. A simple int check (modified by knowledge arcane lore) will likely give you an idea of what spells are possibly being used in the area that are transmutation spells and are invisible. The invisibility just becomes a greater indicator at that point.
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off d
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
It has been out there for awhile, but to be fair it was in the Mechanical Solutions thread.
It still has the problem of long trips, but they could just say that they aren't waiting around for 4-6 hours while the casters memorize and that they can't memorize while sleeping 6-8 hours.
Oh I will admit I totally missed this. I'm gunna entirely blame people that kept trying to argue a point this system has already conceded to and then fixed the actual problem with (with a fix I had agreed to/helped suggest long ago no less). Heck if you wanted to make it a tad harsher you could just straight limit the number of spell levels a caster can prep per day kinda like if you're using alternative HP recouperation rules you can only get a certain ammount of health back per day(only seems fair and is entirely sensible).
On the topic of travel adventures I personally have less of a problem with that...to me the 1 off attacks on the road are the time to show that everyone's powerful. I always feel bad for the attacking highwaymen you'd think they know how to spot someone they shouldn't rob better than that (just a joke I'm aware othe stuff attacks too). Especially if the attacks have nothing to do with any kind of over arching campagin or anything or are only barely connected (killin off mooks). Though tips in the encounter design sections on how to design encounters so that mundanes can shine along side casters would be required (it is possible without drilling a bunch of combats into one day but only barely). Also nothing stops a mini adventure from taking place along the way (where you do have full up days).
I do think it does help that in travel adventures supplies and feed become things that should be tracked. If you're travelling for 10 days straight before your next possible resupply gathering supplies is an important task, and considering those supplies are not infinite one should not expect to be able to take however long they like on the road. Although the smart adventurer plans for at least 3-4 extra days on the road, for whatever reasons that could arise to slow them down. At that point you could think of the supplies as a mechanical note. Every time they pass a certain period of time ( maybe 4 hours) check off a box in the supplies section. Buying a days worth of supplies gets you maybe 6 boxes in the supplies section (maybe change those numbers a bit). This is just a rough idea.
Quick question do they always have to reprepare their whole list every day or do spells already prepared last through sleeping.
I don't think they answered that, but I would assume they stay.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
Detect magic doesn't reveal it, meaning it doesn't make it visable, but it sure as heck detects the magic in the area. You know something magical is within the area. You just can't see it. Heck you know it is transmutation. A simple int check (modified by knowledge arcane lore) will likely give you an idea of what spells are possibly being used in the area that are transmutation spells and are invisible. The invisibility just becomes a greater indicator at that point.
You are wrong. The spell states that it 'does not reveal', meaning the spell doesn't detect magic. The dispel magic spell is targeted, meaning you have to see your target and NOT just dispel an area. 'Choose one creature, object, or spell effect within 100 feet of you.' Since you can't target the spell (see spell targeting in HOW TO PLAY), as you must SEE your target, you can't use dispel magic on an invisible objects. I think the part you missed was this 'does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures' So detect magic doesn't even give you a clue about anything invisible. Or if it's just about the word reveal, it isn't tied to sight. It's about discovering something and that is also what detect means. So you don't detect (Synonym for reveal) invisible objects.
As far as skill:arcane lore, nowhere does it say you can detect magic in it. If you could detect it and/or see it, then you could use the skill to figure out what it is, but it isn't an invisibility finder skill.
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off d
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
Detect Magic would reveal that there is an aura of Transmutation and Dispel Magic can target an area (20-foot radius burst) so either way you do not need to target anything in particular.
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off d
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
Detect magic doesn't reveal it, meaning it doesn't make it visable, but it sure as heck detects the magic in the area. You know something magical is within the area. You just can't see it. Heck you know it is transmutation. A simple int check (modified by knowledge arcane lore) will likely give you an idea of what spells are possibly being used in the area that are transmutation spells and are invisible. The invisibility just becomes a greater indicator at that point.
You are wrong. The spell states that it 'does not reveal', meaning the spell doesn't detect magic. The dispel magic spell is targeted, meaning you have to see your target and NOT just dispel an area. 'Choose one creature, object, or spell effect within 100 feet of you.' Since you can't target the spell (see spell targeting in HOW TO PLAY), as you must SEE your target, you can't use dispel magic on an invisible objects. I think the part you missed was this 'does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures' So detect magic doesn't even give you a clue about anything invisible. Or if it's just about the word reveal, it isn't tied to sight. It's about discovering something and that is also what detect means. So you don't detect (Synonym for reveal) invisible objects.
As far as skill:arcane lore, nowhere does it say you can detect magic in it. If you could detect it and/or see it, then you could use the skill to figure out what it is, but it isn't an invisibility finder skill.
the int check (modified by arcane lore) was just compiling clues and making an assumption based on it. I have an invisible piece of magic its transmutation
Int check to figure out the list of things that could possibly be. Score high enough and your character also has a reasonable assumption given other environmental clues.
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures. I really hope that they meant a different definition of reveal.
re·veal 1(r-vl)
tr.v.re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals
1.
a. To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence.
b. To bring to view; show.
2. To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"(Romans 1:18).
I really hope they were refering to b and not a or 2. However it's really hard to justify that given the bulk of the definitions of reveal.
I mean technically almost all magic your going to try detecting is itself concealed (To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide) in that it is not normally visible...hell the inclusion of that section within the spell detect magic kinda voids its ability to ever work on anything other than overt magic you can see happening. Otherwise the magic is somewhat concealed and therefore can't be revealed by detect magic. I'm going to go with them screwing up the wording here because of how many spells this can't detect.
can't detect mage armor can't detect so many spells because they specifically make something that is undetectable and concealed.
good catch on the completely broken spell.
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off d
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid. It's everything I hated about running 3E,
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures. I really hope that they meant a different definition of reveal.
re·veal 1(r-vl)
tr.v.re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals
1.
a. To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence.
b. To bring to view; show.
2. To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"(Romans 1:18).
I really hope they were refering to b and not a or 2. However it's really hard to justify that given the bulk of the definitions of reveal.
I mean technically almost all magic your going to try detecting is itself concealed (To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide) in that it is not normally visible...hell the inclusion of that section within the spell detect magic kinda voids its ability to ever work on anything other than overt magic you can see happening. Otherwise the magic is somewhat concealed and therefore can't be revealed by detect magic. I'm going to go with them screwing up the wording here because of how many spells this can't detect.
can't detect mage armor can't detect so many spells because they specifically make something that is undetectable and concealed.
good catch on the completely broken spell.
I have to agree with you. I had a big laugh here when I read detect magic and found out that it wouldn't even let you know invisibility was in the area. As you said, most times if you are detecting magic it's because it's concealed. I guess it'll still find magic items. LOL I also found it funny that standing behind an illusion makes it immune to detect magic but if it's just out in the open it can be detected.
On The skill, I'd totally agree with you if detect magic can actually detect and tell the school of a rope trick. From the way the text reads though, I have my doubts.
I have to agree with you. I had a big laugh here when I read detect magic and found out that it wouldn't even let you know invisibility was in the area. As you said, most times if you are detecting magic it's because it's concealed. I guess it'll sti
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures. I really hope that they meant a different definition of reveal.
re·veal 1(r-vl)
tr.v.re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals
1.
a. To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence.
b. To bring to view; show.
2. To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"(Romans 1:18).
I really hope they were refering to b and not a or 2. However it's really hard to justify that given the bulk of the definitions of reveal.
I mean technically almost all magic your going to try detecting is itself concealed (To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide) in that it is not normally visible...hell the inclusion of that section within the spell detect magic kinda voids its ability to ever work on anything other than overt magic you can see happening. Otherwise the magic is somewhat concealed and therefore can't be revealed by detect magic. I'm going to go with them screwing up the wording here because of how many spells this can't detect.
can't detect mage armor can't detect so many spells because they specifically make something that is undetectable and concealed.
good catch on the completely broken spell.
I have to agree with you. I had a big laugh here when I read detect magic and found out that it wouldn't even let you know invisibility was in the area. As you said, most times if you are detecting magic it's because it's concealed. I guess it'll still find magic items. LOL I also found it funny that standing behind an illusion makes it immune to detect magic but if it's just out in the open it can be detected.
On The skill, I'd totally agree with you if detect magic can actually detect and tell the school of a rope trick. From the way the text reads though, I have my doubts.
...You can ignore the presence of magic that you are already aware of. If the magic you sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
I have to agree with you. I had a big laugh here when I read detect magic and found out that it wouldn't even let you know invisibility was in the area. As you said, most times if you are detecting magic it's because it's concealed. I guess it'll sti
...You can ignore the presence of magic that you are already aware of. If the magic you sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitat
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures.
I am not sure which version of Detect Magic you are going off, but a Disguise Self spell would definitely register as a faint aura of Illusion.
Which is why the ability Disguise is still useful.
I am not sure which version of Detect Magic you are going off, but a Disguise Self spell would definitely register as a faint aura of Illusion.Which is why the ability Disguise is still useful.
...You can ignore the presence of magic that you are already aware of. If the magic you sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Dont need 4 dispels because the auras from a 0 level spell are only going to last for 1d6 rounds. If the enemy is that close on your heels then they probably saw you pulling up your rope.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitat
...You can ignore the presence of magic that you are already aware of. If the magic you sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Technically no since the current detect magic only works on things currently being affected by magic. the prestedigitation is instant and therefore is not detected by detect magic unless it is casted in the area during the durration of detect magic. something that had been hit with presto would'nt even ping on the detect magic. kinda like the air hit by a fireball wouldn't ping after the firball had gone off, only for the instant the fireball is going off.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitat
...You can ignore the presence of magic that you are already aware of. If the magic you sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Dont need 4 dispels because the auras from a 0 level spell are only going to last for 1d6 rounds. If the enemy is that close on your heels then they probably saw you pulling up your rope.
ummm...what part of the rules is that covered in i think i missed it.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitat
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
I can identify with that feeling. For me it was the the hour long grinding battles in 4e that just sucked the fun out of the game, so I am hoping that DnD Next will learn from the mistakes of that bad game design
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
I am not sure what type of game would work well for this type of adventure, but certainly any mechanics set up for a dungeon crawl game are going to bite hard when we play something else.
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid. It's everything I hated about running 3E,
Sleeps - I don't think you got my scenario - the point was we were trying to give the beleaguered party a choice - push on and explore the ruins (knowing it will deplete their resources and make the rest of the travel through the swamp more risky), or bypass it and play it safe. If the trip through the swamp is multi-day, and no special dm rule prevents thedaily users from refreshing, then the ruins have no impact on the swamp - it may be dangerous, but they'll rest and recuperate all spells, hp, etc by the next day. As you say, the players don't know if the ruins is dangerous, so, maybe some parties will decide not to seek treasure. I guess. But, it doesn't capture the danger than a multi-day milestone system can provide effectively.
As for milestones only being combat related, I dont see why the system proposed must onlydeal with combat. No recent system (4e, fate) limited milestones to combat only. It's true that the example linked to talked about combat, but I see that as an oversight, not a requirement. As you point out, linking milestones only to combat undervalues non combat actors. However, if it makes your point, I conceed I was confused and hereby recommend milestone systems include non-combat as a recommendation.
Sleeps - I don't think you got my scenario - the point was we were trying to give the beleaguered party a choice - push on and explore the ruins (knowing it will deplete their resources and make the rest of the travel through the swamp more risky), o
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
Detect magic doesn't reveal it, meaning it doesn't make it visable, but it sure as heck detects the magic in the area. You know something magical is within the area. You just can't see it. Heck you know it is transmutation. A simple int check (modified by knowledge arcane lore) will likely give you an idea of what spells are possibly being used in the area that are transmutation spells and are invisible. The invisibility just becomes a greater indicator at that point.
You are wrong. The spell states that it 'does not reveal', meaning the spell doesn't detect magic. The dispel magic spell is targeted, meaning you have to see your target and NOT just dispel an area. 'Choose one creature, object, or spell effect within 100 feet of you.' Since you can't target the spell (see spell targeting in HOW TO PLAY), as you must SEE your target, you can't use dispel magic on an invisible objects. I think the part you missed was this 'does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures' So detect magic doesn't even give you a clue about anything invisible. Or if it's just about the word reveal, it isn't tied to sight. It's about discovering something and that is also what detect means. So you don't detect (Synonym for reveal) invisible objects.
As far as skill:arcane lore, nowhere does it say you can detect magic in it. If you could detect it and/or see it, then you could use the skill to figure out what it is, but it isn't an invisibility finder skill.
the int check (modified by arcane lore) was just compiling clues and making an assumption based on it. I have an invisible piece of magic its transmutation
Int check to figure out the list of things that could possibly be. Score high enough and your character also has a reasonable assumption given other environmental clues.
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures. I really hope that they meant a different definition of reveal.
re·veal 1(r-vl)
tr.v.re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals
1.
a. To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence.
b. To bring to view; show.
2. To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"(Romans 1:18).
I really hope they were refering to b and not a or 2. However it's really hard to justify that given the bulk of the definitions of reveal.
I mean technically almost all magic your going to try detecting is itself concealed (To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide) in that it is not normally visible...hell the inclusion of that section within the spell detect magic kinda voids its ability to ever work on anything other than overt magic you can see happening. Otherwise the magic is somewhat concealed and therefore can't be revealed by detect magic. I'm going to go with them screwing up the wording here because of how many spells this can't detect.
can't detect mage armor can't detect so many spells because they specifically make something that is undetectable and concealed.
good catch on the completely broken spell.
Yeah, its a 1st level spell in most editions so I can easily see where it wouldn't be able to detect invisible effects. In fact in 3E there were more powerful versions at higher levels. One basically gave you permanent detect magic vision, another told you anything you wanted to know about an effect or object that was magical.
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off d
In Englishs example he was fighting Goblins, so no they most probably do not have extra dimensional abilities, but with Goblins I would have them attacking the party in waves so that you basically had a whole days worth of encounters at one time. Then when the party rests it is because they are totally tapped out and not because they have lost one spell and need to memorise it.
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the goblins had some kind of caster that could use one, even searching something as simple as a 2 mile radius around their lair with a spell that only lasts a few minutes and "sees" only 60 ft at a time is going to be pretty mcuh impossible, so setting up some kind of ambush on the rope trick just isn't very likely.
As far as pulling the dungeon on them, well wouldn't that just be the goblin's default security protocol? Why does it change because the party is using rope trick?
But certainly at higher levels, and especially if the party has started to make a name for themselves, you would expect any BBEG with a high intelligence to be aware of spells like Rope Trcik and to be prepared to deal with parties that use it. It is not only common sense but it is the logical thing to do.
The problem is that there's really not a good way to be prepared. Even if you know your enemies use rope trick, it doesn't help you much, because there's not any easy way to locate it.
The only real "counter" is just having good security protocols that involve pulling your dungeon on a group of intruders, but really, why wouldn't you just have that protocol in place from the start? Dungeons are designed to be fortified lairs and the D&D world is a dangerous one, so it makes little sense to me that monsters would start out wtih a lax security protocol at all.
I gotta agree here. This is what we are talking about when we say contrived...
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the gobli
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
Thanks you. See if people read things, the last 1000 posts wouldn't have happened...
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Rather a problem with rope trick, than with the core?
A problem with any safe haven spell that allows you to rest. An extended mass, sanctuary spell cast by a druid that lasted 24 hours would have the same effect except they could camp right in the middle of the goblins while they were dining and nothing would happen.
I don't know if that would work for 24 hours. It allows a save by each target which if even a single one succeeds means the jig is up...
A problem with any safe haven spell that allows you to rest. An extended mass, sanctuary spell cast by a druid that lasted 24 hours would have the same effect except they could camp right in the middle of the goblins while they were dining and nothin
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
It has been out there for awhile, but to be fair it was in the Mechanical Solutions thread.
It still has the problem of long trips, but they could just say that they aren't waiting around for 4-6 hours while the casters memorize and that they can't memorize while sleeping 6-8 hours.
Oh I will admit I totally missed this. I'm gunna entirely blame people that kept trying to argue a point this system has already conceded to and then fixed the actual problem with (with a fix I had agreed to/helped suggest long ago no less). Heck if you wanted to make it a tad harsher you could just straight limit the number of spell levels a caster can prep per day kinda like if you're using alternative HP recouperation rules you can only get a certain ammount of health back per day(only seems fair and is entirely sensible).
On the topic of travel adventures I personally have less of a problem with that...to me the 1 off attacks on the road are the time to show that everyone's powerful. I always feel bad for the attacking highwaymen you'd think they know how to spot someone they shouldn't rob better than that (just a joke I'm aware othe stuff attacks too). Especially if the attacks have nothing to do with any kind of over arching campagin or anything or are only barely connected (killin off mooks). Though tips in the encounter design sections on how to design encounters so that mundanes can shine along side casters would be required (it is possible without drilling a bunch of combats into one day but only barely). Also nothing stops a mini adventure from taking place along the way (where you do have full up days).
I do think it does help that in travel adventures supplies and feed become things that should be tracked. If you're travelling for 10 days straight before your next possible resupply gathering supplies is an important task, and considering those supplies are not infinite one should not expect to be able to take however long they like on the road. Although the smart adventurer plans for at least 3-4 extra days on the road, for whatever reasons that could arise to slow them down. At that point you could think of the supplies as a mechanical note. Every time they pass a certain period of time ( maybe 4 hours) check off a box in the supplies section. Buying a days worth of supplies gets you maybe 6 boxes in the supplies section (maybe change those numbers a bit). This is just a rough idea.
Quick question do they always have to reprepare their whole list every day or do spells already prepared last through sleeping.
We could have the dial, but people like me wouldn't use it so any benefit from the 5MWD would be lost on me...
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
Thanks you. See if people read things, the last 1000 posts wouldn't have happened...
Yeah, and when someone asks for a link and it takes ten or so requests and is told to check the three other existing threads, that helps to keep stuff on track. There's a word for it... I just can't remember what it is...
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
It has been out there for awhile, but to be fair it was in the Mechanical Solutions thread.
It still has the problem of long trips, but they could just say that they aren't waiting around for 4-6 hours while the casters memorize and that they can't memorize while sleeping 6-8 hours.
Oh I will admit I totally missed this. I'm gunna entirely blame people that kept trying to argue a point this system has already conceded to and then fixed the actual problem with (with a fix I had agreed to/helped suggest long ago no less). Heck if you wanted to make it a tad harsher you could just straight limit the number of spell levels a caster can prep per day kinda like if you're using alternative HP recouperation rules you can only get a certain ammount of health back per day(only seems fair and is entirely sensible).
On the topic of travel adventures I personally have less of a problem with that...to me the 1 off attacks on the road are the time to show that everyone's powerful. I always feel bad for the attacking highwaymen you'd think they know how to spot someone they shouldn't rob better than that (just a joke I'm aware othe stuff attacks too). Especially if the attacks have nothing to do with any kind of over arching campagin or anything or are only barely connected (killin off mooks). Though tips in the encounter design sections on how to design encounters so that mundanes can shine along side casters would be required (it is possible without drilling a bunch of combats into one day but only barely). Also nothing stops a mini adventure from taking place along the way (where you do have full up days).
I do think it does help that in travel adventures supplies and feed become things that should be tracked. If you're travelling for 10 days straight before your next possible resupply gathering supplies is an important task, and considering those supplies are not infinite one should not expect to be able to take however long they like on the road. Although the smart adventurer plans for at least 3-4 extra days on the road, for whatever reasons that could arise to slow them down. At that point you could think of the supplies as a mechanical note. Every time they pass a certain period of time ( maybe 4 hours) check off a box in the supplies section. Buying a days worth of supplies gets you maybe 6 boxes in the supplies section (maybe change those numbers a bit). This is just a rough idea.
Quick question do they always have to reprepare their whole list every day or do spells already prepared last through sleeping.
I don't think they answered that, but I would assume they stay.
In all respects my suggested mile stone points and shrines and studies works just like the game works now with only the changes listed in the suggestion, so you retain the spells you have memorized...
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
Exactly, well said...
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid. It's everything I hated about running 3E,
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures.
I am not sure which version of Detect Magic you are going off, but a Disguise Self spell would definitely register as a faint aura of Illusion.
Which is why the ability Disguise is still useful.
Yeah, you need to go back and read it again...
I am not sure which version of Detect Magic you are going off, but a Disguise Self spell would definitely register as a faint aura of Illusion.Which is why the ability Disguise is still useful.[/quote]Yeah, you need to go back and read it again...
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
I can identify with that feeling. For me it was the the hour long grinding battles in 4e that just sucked the fun out of the game, so I am hoping that DnD Next will learn from the mistakes of that bad game design
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
I am not sure what type of game would work well for this type of adventure, but certainly any mechanics set up for a dungeon crawl game are going to bite hard when we play something else.
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid. It's everything I hated about running 3E,
Sleeps - I don't think you got my scenario - the point was we were trying to give the beleaguered party a choice - push on and explore the ruins (knowing it will deplete their resources and make the rest of the travel through the swamp more risky), or bypass it and play it safe. If the trip through the swamp is multi-day, and no special dm rule prevents thedaily users from refreshing, then the ruins have no impact on the swamp - it may be dangerous, but they'll rest and recuperate all spells, hp, etc by the next day. As you say, the players don't know if the ruins is dangerous, so, maybe some parties will decide not to seek treasure. I guess. But, it doesn't capture the danger than a multi-day milestone system can provide effectively.
As for milestones only being combat related, I dont see why the system proposed must onlydeal with combat. No recent system (4e, fate) limited milestones to combat only. It's true that the example linked to talked about combat, but I see that as an oversight, not a requirement. As you point out, linking milestones only to combat undervalues non combat actors. However, if it makes your point, I conceed I was confused and hereby recommend milestone systems include non-combat as a recommendation.
My suggestion is not limited to combat encounters. It is limited to anything that can be considered an encounter. Basically anything that uses resources and has risks associated with it. And please no bags of rats comments, they will be ignored just as they were in 3.xE...
My suggestion is not limited to combat encounters. It is limited to anything that can be considered an encounter. Basically anything that uses resources and has risks associated with it. And please no bags of rats comments, they will be ignored just
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
Thanks you. See if people read things, the last 1000 posts wouldn't have happened...
Yeah, and when someone asks for a link and it takes ten or so requests and is told to check the three other existing threads, that helps to keep stuff on track. There's a word for it... I just can't remember what it is...
The sad thing is all of these threads could be pared down to about five hundred posts if they didn't go in circles so much.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
Sleepsintraffic suggested supplies could be a solution, and, it sorta maybe can be in some cases. (It seems like an opportunity to use tensors floating disk instead of a real challenge). But notice that it isn't a solution in my case, since we're walking overland 2 weeks to visit the shining city one way or another. I guess, for those who track arrows and have a all ranger party, you could use arrows(supplies) as a milestone like refresh - no more arrows till you cross the marsh. I guess in an all ranger party without a magic quiver, that could work.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.
Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggested where the players could not get back their resources till they went through a specific number of combat encounters of a certain strength. Doesn't matter if your utility mage is entirely tapped before the first combat of the sequence, because he was doing his job and there wasn't a combat till after all the utility usage was needed, he still wouldn't be able to reprep until after the 4th or 5th fight. it is literally divorced entirely from the story.
Actually when we are talking about mile stone points we are talking about the one where you gain one mile stone point for surviving an easy encounter, two for surviving a normal encounter, and three for surviving a hard encounter. Then they can use these points to reduce the amount of time it takes to memorize a spell from a set time, the suggestion said 10 minutes per level but that is too low, so that a rest of 10 minutes can net the players extra spells. Then they combined the idea with shrines and libraries where a divine caster could reduce the time to memorize spells if they were at a shrine down to an extremely low amount, the suggestion said 1 minute but that time may be off, combined with full mile stone points this would mean an hour or two for a high level character to regain all spells. The DM could place shrines and libraries where they want the players to have an easy time to recover and all other times the players would have to rest for extremely long amounts of time to recover spells. Such a long time that even the random encounters would be an almost certainty.
Of course this still doesn't work for long trips through the wilderness. You rest 8 hours each day so even with no mile stone points and no shrines or libraries available you are still going to be able to memorize most of your spells each day.
So I think there has been some revisions since last I got a clear look at the system...A fault of having to discuss the same topic in about 4 or 5 different threads...that system is very different from the proposals I'd been hearing and is agreeable to me because it doesn't take the option of regaining spells away from the group entirely it just makes it less of an awesome option. Pair this with responsible spell design and it works better. 10 mintutes per spell level sounds like a good idea I mean for the level 10 character to prep a full list that is stil 5 hours. I do assume this is in addition to the 8 hour charge of a rest making the total resting time 13 hours, and you can only do it once per 24 hour period anyways. At 20th level your non shrine no points prep time is 15 hours (on top of the assumed 6-8 hour rest and this is basically impossible durring a journey). The "shrines" as 1 minute per spell level sound like a good idea. that makes it a half hour for a 10th level character (yet again assumed to be on top of the normal 6-8 hour requirement) I'd still reflavor the heck out of this because basically as a story writing subsystem this works better if the defined reasons for the quicker recharge should be somewhat variable to match the story. Though suggestions of libraries, shrines, labs, leylines, sacred places, holy ground stuff like that works. No need to tie any one specific thing to any one specific class. I still kinda dislike the milestones themselves it just feels forced, like trying to find an in game explanation for why killing things makes you reprep your magic more quickly just doesn't sit right with me but it isn't too bad. Like maybe if your some kind of blood caster...I think the explanation I would have to use is that fresh monster parts speed up the preperation process for any spell. Now how do milestone points effect prep time.
I do apologize for railing against this so hard if this fix to it has been in the proposal for an extended period of time...having to jump threads and respond to a bunch of people saying a bunch of crap that wasn't just, "how about we change the system we proposed to make it more agreeable to you", made it difficult to see your revisions to the sub system. Sorry if they have been there for a while.
It has been out there for awhile, but to be fair it was in the Mechanical Solutions thread.
It still has the problem of long trips, but they could just say that they aren't waiting around for 4-6 hours while the casters memorize and that they can't memorize while sleeping 6-8 hours.
Oh I will admit I totally missed this. I'm gunna entirely blame people that kept trying to argue a point this system has already conceded to and then fixed the actual problem with (with a fix I had agreed to/helped suggest long ago no less). Heck if you wanted to make it a tad harsher you could just straight limit the number of spell levels a caster can prep per day kinda like if you're using alternative HP recouperation rules you can only get a certain ammount of health back per day(only seems fair and is entirely sensible).
On the topic of travel adventures I personally have less of a problem with that...to me the 1 off attacks on the road are the time to show that everyone's powerful. I always feel bad for the attacking highwaymen you'd think they know how to spot someone they shouldn't rob better than that (just a joke I'm aware othe stuff attacks too). Especially if the attacks have nothing to do with any kind of over arching campagin or anything or are only barely connected (killin off mooks). Though tips in the encounter design sections on how to design encounters so that mundanes can shine along side casters would be required (it is possible without drilling a bunch of combats into one day but only barely). Also nothing stops a mini adventure from taking place along the way (where you do have full up days).
I do think it does help that in travel adventures supplies and feed become things that should be tracked. If you're travelling for 10 days straight before your next possible resupply gathering supplies is an important task, and considering those supplies are not infinite one should not expect to be able to take however long they like on the road. Although the smart adventurer plans for at least 3-4 extra days on the road, for whatever reasons that could arise to slow them down. At that point you could think of the supplies as a mechanical note. Every time they pass a certain period of time ( maybe 4 hours) check off a box in the supplies section. Buying a days worth of supplies gets you maybe 6 boxes in the supplies section (maybe change those numbers a bit). This is just a rough idea.
Quick question do they always have to reprepare their whole list every day or do spells already prepared last through sleeping.
We could have the dial, but people like me wouldn't use it so any benefit from the 5MWD would be lost on me...
I wouldn't use it either. In fact if it had an encounter recovery setting, I would use that instead.
Supplies are just a big piece in the tapestry of motivations...no single thing in the story is going to work ya gotta have a few.Also I think you're confusing something. When we talk about milestones we are reffering to a system that someone suggeste
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
I can identify with that feeling. For me it was the the hour long grinding battles in 4e that just sucked the fun out of the game, so I am hoping that DnD Next will learn from the mistakes of that bad game design
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
I am not sure what type of game would work well for this type of adventure, but certainly any mechanics set up for a dungeon crawl game are going to bite hard when we play something else.
The question is how do you trim down the time without messing with the tactical choices? I don't see any way that is particularly well thought out.
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid. It's everything I hated about running 3E,
That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
I can identify with that feeling. For me it was the the hour long grinding battles in 4e that just sucked the fun out of the game, so I am hoping that DnD Next will learn from the mistakes of that bad game design
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
I am not sure what type of game would work well for this type of adventure, but certainly any mechanics set up for a dungeon crawl game are going to bite hard when we play something else.
The question is how do you trim down the time without messing with the tactical choices? I don't see any way that is particularly well thought out.
Well, one attack roll and one damage roll, both rolled together. Designing monsters to be able to take 2-3 hits instead of 4-5 like 4E did. Getting rid of all the fiddly rules like the exception based design of 4E. There are a lot of little things that contribute to long combats. Getting rid of a lot of that from 4E would make for a tactical game with much shorter combats. Of course what we have now is combats that are so simple and easy they don't last hardly any time at all...
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid. It's everything I hated about running 3E,
Sleeps - I don't think you got my scenario - the point was we were trying to give the beleaguered party a choice - push on and explore the ruins (knowing it will deplete their resources and make the rest of the travel through the swamp more risky), or bypass it and play it safe. If the trip through the swamp is multi-day, and no special dm rule prevents thedaily users from refreshing, then the ruins have no impact on the swamp - it may be dangerous, but they'll rest and recuperate all spells, hp, etc by the next day. As you say, the players don't know if the ruins is dangerous, so, maybe some parties will decide not to seek treasure. I guess. But, it doesn't capture the danger than a multi-day milestone system can provide effectively.
As for milestones only being combat related, I dont see why the system proposed must onlydeal with combat. No recent system (4e, fate) limited milestones to combat only. It's true that the example linked to talked about combat, but I see that as an oversight, not a requirement. As you point out, linking milestones only to combat undervalues non combat actors. However, if it makes your point, I conceed I was confused and hereby recommend milestone systems include non-combat as a recommendation.
hey maybe quote what I had said before...I moved on to another convo...if you could requote what i had said Ill dive back in no problem.
hey maybe quote what I had said before...I moved on to another convo...if you could requote what i had said Ill dive back in no problem.
Posters saying that rope trick trouble says more about the spell than the 5MWD would be correct, were it not for the fact that at the start 4E lacked any quick resting/healing surge distribution rituals. 4 years later it includes many, most added to the game through official sources. It suggests to me that while people dislike the 5MWD, they do run in the problem were groups unexpectedly have to spend too many resources too early due to bad luck and bad planning on the players' side. Apparently groups don't conclude that they made the mistake, better luck next time, but the system does get blamed and options are added for mid-dungeon resting. For me it only confirmst that the 5MWD is a symptom with the root cause (daily resources - including hit points btw) also causing other issues .
In the end, I am a fan of the strategy part of the game. I like planning, and really dislike those resting rituals. I still would like to see some more mechanical incentives to both go on, to prevent going nova AND to prevent being suddenly out of resources due to bad luck. O well, it is a complicated issue and I wonder at what point such mechanics stop the game from being D&D...
Posters saying that rope trick trouble says more about the spell than the 5MWD would be correct, were it not for the fact that at the start 4E lacked any quick resting/healing surge distribution rituals. 4 years later it includes many, most added to
In my job I'm on call and get paid for standing around for hours and sometimes days at a time, but then I get called out and get my time in the spot light. I personally don't want to play a game like that because it is boring when I'm not doing my job, but just standing around doing nothing. In real life I can watch TV or read a magazine or whatever, but while playing D&D that gets frowned upon.
Except that in D&D when your character isn't acting, something very interesting and entertaining is happening that can captivate you if you allow it. A story is being told. Drama is unfolding. And for the tactically minded battle is playing out, requiring contstantly shifting battle plans to be developed and either dicarded or revised. Waiting your turn in D&D is only boring if you don't pay attention.
Except that in D&D when your character isn't acting, something very interesting and entertaining is happening that can captivate you if you allow it. A story is being told. Drama is unfolding. And for the tactically minded battle is playing out, r
In my job I'm on call and get paid for standing around for hours and sometimes days at a time, but then I get called out and get my time in the spot light. I personally don't want to play a game like that because it is boring when I'm not doing my job, but just standing around doing nothing. In real life I can watch TV or read a magazine or whatever, but while playing D&D that gets frowned upon.
Except that in D&D when your character isn't acting, something very interesting and entertaining is happening that can captivate you if you allow it. A story is being told. Drama is unfolding. And for the tactically minded battle is playing out, requiring contstantly shifting battle plans to be developed and either dicarded or revised. Waiting your turn in D&D is only boring if you don't pay attention.
In my experience D&D games are rarely that interesting to watch from the sidelines for most people for that long - of it were the people are probably working in the entertainment business The exact time depends a lot on individuals and what is going on, but I doubt it is much longer than 15 minutes for most people (certainly the time I keep in mind when switching around between groups if they happen to split up).
Except that in D&D when your character isn't acting, something very interesting and entertaining is happening that can captivate you if you allow it. A story is being told. Drama is unfolding. And for the tactically minded battle is playing out, r
Well no. See here's the thing. You can rest before doing four encounters. You just don't get your spells back. So what happens is that you can have a 10 day wilderness trip with 4 encounters and have the PCs still experience resource depletion during the journey.
Are they sleeping? Sure.
But they can't recover spells during the rest until they've completed some mechancial precondition that says "Okay we can recover spells after a rest now."
What it does is makes resource depletion a feature of every adventure without the DMing having to carefully set the pacing of his adventure to make that happen. And given that resource depletion is a balancing factor to the spellcaster classes, I think that's absolutely something we want, unless you want spellcasters to get all the advantages without any of the drawbacks.
Wow! Where is lokiare and his favorite word "contrived" when you need him?
Wow! Where is lokiare and his favorite word "contrived" when you need him?
But they can't recover spells during the rest until they've completed some mechancial precondition that says "Okay we can recover spells after a rest now."
Wow! Where is lokiare and his favorite word "contrived" when you need him?
That's why you sculpt the flavour of the mechanic so that it feels less contrived or not contrived at all. As Dwarfslayer is found of saying (and I will paraphrase here): why should recovering magic be like resting a muscle? This is a place where I think getting a mechanic first (or a series of mechanics) and then finding ways to make sure they do not feel contrived is a better approach, especially when no matter what you do, it is going from a system that people can grok, "ah, so getting magic back is like easing my back pain," to something else.
See my players and I get our enjoyment from the tactical side of things, and advancement is only valued because it opens more tactical options.
You say you enjoy tactics, then choose to play in a way that basically makes all tactical challenges the intellectual equivalent of Candyland. I refuse to believe you enjoy tactics at all.
He could also go into every combat with one arm tied behind his back or blindfolded or hopping on one leg, does the fact that he doesn't do that mean he is not looking for a tactical challenge? Maybe it would be best to understand that he is looking for a tactical challenge while using all of the legally allowed things that he can find in the rulesbook. In a tight system with no strange loopholes, this wouldn't be a problem, in D&D, it can lead to 5MWD exploits.
Wow! Where is lokiare and his favorite word "contrived" when you need him?[/quote]That's why you sculpt the flavour of the mechanic so that it feels less contrived or not contrived at all. As Dwarfslayer is found of saying (and I will paraphrase her
In my experience D&D games are rarely that interesting to watch from the sidelines for most people for that long - of it were the people are probably working in the entertainment business The exact time depends a lot on individuals and what is going on, but I doubt it is much longer than 15 minutes for most people (certainly the time I keep in mind when switching around between groups if they happen to split up).
I've never had a player sit out for an entire session (unless they didn't attend). I don't know where this notion that we're making people sit around and watch for hours comes from. I know Garthanos or someone said they were made to sit out for two sessions one time, but really who doesn't believe that is the fault of an abyssmally terrible DM? Especially given the profusion of healing in 4e I never saw a character down for more than a few minutes. Even in older editions where healing was harder to accomplish in battle, combats were much shorter. Players never sat out for very long. In cases where a character is killed, I've still never had a player sit out for long. In 4e I allowed players to take over NPCs, or even play some of my monsters. I have always encouraged players to have a folder of characters (with DDI they use Character Builder) ready to use at a moments notice. In that case it is encumbent on me to come up with a way to get them into the story as soon as possible. It isn't always necessary to have the party trek back to town and pick someone else up at the local Inn. I've had new characters written in during the same fight in which the old one died. And it isn't even that hard to do.
I've never had a player sit out for an entire session (unless they didn't attend). I don't know where this notion that we're making people sit around and watch for hours comes from. I know Garthanos or someone said they were made to sit out for two
That's why you sculpt the flavour of the mechanic so that it feels less contrived or not contrived at all. As Dwarfslayer is found of saying (and I will paraphrase here): why should recovering magic be like resting a muscle? This is a place where I think getting a mechanic first (or a series of mechanics) and then finding ways to make sure they do not feel contrived is a better approach, especially when no matter what you do, it is going from a system that people can grok, "ah, so getting magic back is like easing my back pain," to something else.
Well because it's not. Resting is to refresh the mind so studying can be accomplished. That is explicitly stated in the rules if you bother to look. You sleep and still have no spells. Then you study, recommitting them to memory. Then you have spells. If you try to study with a weary mind, you don't remember what you studied, or remember it imperfectly. Which by the way, is not contrived, but very logical and, in fact, perfectly imitates real life.
Well because it's not. Resting is to refresh the mind so studying can be accomplished. That is explicitly stated in the rules if you bother to look. You sleep and still have no spells. Then you study, recommitting them to memory. Then you have s
In my experience D&D games are rarely that interesting to watch from the sidelines for most people for that long - of it were the people are probably working in the entertainment business The exact time depends a lot on individuals and what is going on, but I doubt it is much longer than 15 minutes for most people (certainly the time I keep in mind when switching around between groups if they happen to split up).
I've never had a player sit out for an entire session (unless they didn't attend). I don't know where this notion that we're making people sit around and watch for hours comes from. I know Garthanos or someone said they were made to sit out for two sessions one time, but really who doesn't believe that is the fault of an abyssmally terrible DM? Especially given the profusion of healing in 4e I never saw a character down for more than a few minutes. Even in older editions where healing was harder to accomplish in battle, combats were much shorter. Players never sat out for very long. In cases where a character is killed, I've still never had a player sit out for long. In 4e I allowed players to take over NPCs, or even play some of my monsters. I have always encouraged players to have a folder of characters (with DDI they use Character Builder) ready to use at a moments notice. In that case it is encumbent on me to come up with a way to get them into the story as soon as possible. It isn't always necessary to have the party trek back to town and pick someone else up at the local Inn. I've had new characters written in during the same fight in which the old one died. And it isn't even that hard to do.
We are talking mid level 3.xE and most of 4E here. With each player taking 3 minutes and monsters taking 1-2 each, you could easily wait 15-20 minutes until your turn.
Nice to see that you house ruled boredom away by letting the players play your monsters, unless you want to reference the rule that makes that RAW somewhere...
I've never had a player sit out for an entire session (unless they didn't attend). I don't know where this notion that we're making people sit around and watch for hours comes from. I know Garthanos or someone said they were made to sit out for two
Well no. See here's the thing. You can rest before doing four encounters. You just don't get your spells back. So what happens is that you can have a 10 day wilderness trip with 4 encounters and have the PCs still experience resource depletion during the journey.
Are they sleeping? Sure.
But they can't recover spells during the rest until they've completed some mechancial precondition that says "Okay we can recover spells after a rest now."
What it does is makes resource depletion a feature of every adventure without the DMing having to carefully set the pacing of his adventure to make that happen. And given that resource depletion is a balancing factor to the spellcaster classes, I think that's absolutely something we want, unless you want spellcasters to get all the advantages without any of the drawbacks.
Wow! Where is lokiare and his favorite word "contrived" when you need him?
Yes it is contrived, but no more contrived than having to sleep be able to read a book...
Wow! Where is lokiare and his favorite word "contrived" when you need him?[/quote]Yes it is contrived, but no more contrived than having to sleep be able to read a book...
That's why you sculpt the flavour of the mechanic so that it feels less contrived or not contrived at all. As Dwarfslayer is found of saying (and I will paraphrase here): why should recovering magic be like resting a muscle? This is a place where I think getting a mechanic first (or a series of mechanics) and then finding ways to make sure they do not feel contrived is a better approach, especially when no matter what you do, it is going from a system that people can grok, "ah, so getting magic back is like easing my back pain," to something else.
Well because it's not. Resting is to refresh the mind so studying can be accomplished. That is explicitly stated in the rules if you bother to look. You sleep and still have no spells. Then you study, recommitting them to memory. Then you have spells. If you try to study with a weary mind, you don't remember what you studied, or remember it imperfectly. Which by the way, is not contrived, but very logical and, in fact, perfectly imitates real life.
That's just as contrived as anything else. It in no way imitates real life. You can memorize phrases and words pretty easily in real life even if you didn't just wake up from 6 hours of sleep. In fact its probably harder if you just woke up because you are groggy. Its completely contrived...
Well because it's not. Resting is to refresh the mind so studying can be accomplished. That is explicitly stated in the rules if you bother to look. You sleep and still have no spells. Then you study, recommitting them to memory. Then you have s
In my experience D&D games are rarely that interesting to watch from the sidelines for most people for that long - of it were the people are probably working in the entertainment business The exact time depends a lot on individuals and what is going on, but I doubt it is much longer than 15 minutes for most people (certainly the time I keep in mind when switching around between groups if they happen to split up).
I've never had a player sit out for an entire session (unless they didn't attend). I don't know where this notion that we're making people sit around and watch for hours comes from. I know Garthanos or someone said they were made to sit out for two sessions one time, but really who doesn't believe that is the fault of an abyssmally terrible DM? Especially given the profusion of healing in 4e I never saw a character down for more than a few minutes. Even in older editions where healing was harder to accomplish in battle, combats were much shorter. Players never sat out for very long. In cases where a character is killed, I've still never had a player sit out for long. In 4e I allowed players to take over NPCs, or even play some of my monsters. I have always encouraged players to have a folder of characters (with DDI they use Character Builder) ready to use at a moments notice. In that case it is encumbent on me to come up with a way to get them into the story as soon as possible. It isn't always necessary to have the party trek back to town and pick someone else up at the local Inn. I've had new characters written in during the same fight in which the old one died. And it isn't even that hard to do.
I never said it was for a whole session. As Iokare pointed out, in 4e and mid/high levels in 3E missing even one or two rounds could mean doing nothing for at least 20 minutes (and in case of 3e missing the whole fight). Worse, even doing something could come down to doing nothing for a whole fight if what you did took 5 seconds to resolve, had little direct impact on the fight while the rest needs at least 5 minutes to resolve their rounds. Mind you, this is not directly related to the 5MWD persee, although it can happen due to a 5MWD. I just wanted to point out that arguing that "doing nothing, but observe" being fun is in practice only true to a very limited amount of time for most players and that to me sounds as a really hollow argument for allowing PCs to have a "side-kick" role.
I've never had a player sit out for an entire session (unless they didn't attend). I don't know where this notion that we're making people sit around and watch for hours comes from. I know Garthanos or someone said they were made to sit out for two
That's just as contrived as anything else. It in no way imitates real life. You can memorize phrases and words pretty easily in real life even if you didn't just wake up from 6 hours of sleep. In fact its probably harder if you just woke up because you are groggy. Its completely contrived...
Prove it. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. I want concrete proofs.
Prove it. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. I want concrete proofs.
Yes it is contrived, but no more contrived than having to sleep be able to read a book...
Sleep to effectively study. Keep lying clown.
Last I checked it's pretty tough to study while you're sleeping. I can easily study a bit while I'm walking somewhere or riding in a cart, or just have 2-3 minutes of spare time, I don't see why a Wizard much more intelligent than I am can't.
Also, it helps to have an argument that's more than "You're lying you lying liar" and "You're argument is weak because it's weak."
Sleep to effectively study. Keep lying clown. [/quote]Last I checked it's pretty tough to study while you're sleeping. I can easily study a bit while I'm walking somewhere or riding in a cart, or just have 2-3 minutes of spare time, I don't see why
I never said it was for a whole session. As Iokare pointed out, in 4e and mid/high levels in 3E missing even one or two rounds could mean doing nothing for at least 20 minutes (and in case of 3e missing the whole fight). Worse, even doing something could come down to doing nothing for a whole fight if what you did took 5 seconds to resolve, had little direct impact on the fight while the rest needs at least 5 minutes to resolve their rounds. Mind you, this is not directly related to the 5MWD persee, although it can happen due to a 5MWD. I just wanted to point out that arguing that "doing nothing, but observe" being fun is in practice only true to a very limited amount of time for most players and that to me sounds as a really hollow argument for allowing PCs to have a "side-kick" role.
OMG! 20 minutes!! Please don't do something rash during that time, don't hurt yourself or anything! I'm sure we can find something for you to do!
You know, like watching the intensely interesting story develop. Meh. Your argument is weak, weak, weak.
Not any weaker than yours. It is al about personal experiences and what individuals get out of a game. To you 20 minutes of doing nothing is nothing, to others it means the session is ruined. Note that I never said anything about being personally irritated about doing nothing for 20 minutes, merely that I have seen people being really frustrated about it, especially when it happened several times during a single session (and yes, I have seen this happen regularly in 3e and 4e games even when I did my utmost best to prevent it as a player and a DM), but this is really edition dependend and might very well be completely different in Next. It is also simply not true that watching D&D while doing nothing is fun at least not in my experience (even less so when you actually do have a vested interest in the outcome). It is the ease with which people outright dismiss other people's experiences and play styles that is what frustrates me so much about disussion. Anyway, we are getting off-topic.
:shocked:OMG! 20 minutes!! Please don't do something rash during that time, don't hurt yourself or anything! I'm sure we can find something for you to do!You know, like watching the intensely interesting story develop. Meh. Your argument is weak
I said that you must sleep when your mind is weary in order to be able to effectively study your spell book. That is the premise, and that is what happens in real life. Can some people squeek by on all night cramming sessions? Sure. Does that mean they've retained the material? Probably not.
I said that you must sleep when your mind is weary in order to be able to effectively study your spell book. That is the premise, and that is what happens in real life. Can some people squeek by on all night cramming sessions? Sure. Does that mea
I find the fact that you think its a DM problem hilarious.
And I find the fact that you can't admit it is equally so.
So the fact that several people see it as a 'hard baked' consequence of the rules that your social contract says it's a no-no is suddenly 'superiour'?
I find that amusing.
And let me step into this quagmire again:
YOUR SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT YOU HAVE WITH YOUR PLAYERS IS UNIQUE TO YOUR GROUP. AND MAYBE YOU MIGHT WISH IT SO, BUT IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL. DO NOT PRESUME AS MUCH. EVERYONE HERE READS THE RULES DIFFERENTLY. PLEASE RESPECT THAT.
AND AGAIN, I FEEL COMPELLED TO POINT OUT THAT SOME OF YOU ACTUALLY ADMIT TO SEEING THE 5MWD PROBLEM THAT YOU 'SOLVED' BY IGNORE/CHANGING IT. THE FACT THAT YOU FELT THE NEED TO CHANGE OR IGNORE IT, IS PRETTY TELLING.
LIKE YOU KNOW IT EXISTS.
My apologies for the bold caps, but I suspect that a fair amount of you would ignore it, the rest still will, mind you, but not as many now.
And I find the fact that you can't admit it is equally so.[/quote]So the fact that several people see it as a 'hard baked' consequence of the rules that your social contract says it's a no-no is suddenly 'superiour'?I find that amusing.And let me ste
So the fact that several people see it as a 'hard baked' consequence of the rules that your social contract says it's a no-no is suddenly 'superiour'?
I find that amusing.
And let me step into this quagmire again:
YOUR SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT YOU HAVE WITH YOUR PLAYERS IS UNIQUE TO YOUR GROUP. AND MAYBE YOU MIGHT WISH IT SO, BUT IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL. DO NOT PRESUME AS MUCH. EVERYONE HERE READS THE RULES DIFFERENTLY. PLEASE RESPECT THAT.
AND AGAIN, I FEEL COMPELLED TO POINT OUT THAT SOME OF YOU ACTUALLY ADMIT TO SEEING THE 5MWD PROBLEM THAT YOU 'SOLVED' BY IGNORE/CHANGING IT. THE FACT THAT YOU FELT THE NEED TO CHANGE OR IGNORE IT, IS PRETTY TELLING.
LIKE YOU KNOW IT EXISTS.
My apologies for the bold caps, but I suspect that a fair amount of you would ignore it, the rest still will, mind you, but not as many now.
No one here denies that it happens. On that you are incorrect. Where we disagree is on the reason why it happens. If it were a hard baked consequence of the RAW, everyone would experience it without fail when no houserules to prevent it are in effect. That is not even remotely what is happening. Therefore it must be a consequence of play style. The enforcer of play style at most, if not all tables, is the DM. Therefore is is the DMs fault.
I'm a little more critical of the players and give them equal blame for a tactic that is absurd on it's face.
No one here denies that it happens. On that you are incorrect. Where we disagree is on the reason why it happens. If it were a hard baked consequence of the RAW, everyone would experience it without fail when no houserules to prevent it are in eff
Kalex, you're going to have to accept that the 5MWD will continue to be a mechanical issue, until the RAW clearly defines how many rests that a party can benefit from in a given day/24hr period.
Until that day comes, the anti-5MWD arguments of you & your brethren are worthless.
Kalex, you're going to have to accept that the 5MWD will continue to be a mechanical issue, until the RAW clearly defines how many rests that a party can benefit from in a given day/24hr period.Until that day comes, the anti-5MWD arguments of you & y
Kalex, you're going to have to accept that the 5MWD will continue to be a mechanical issue, until the RAW clearly defines how many rests that a party can benefit from in a given day/24hr period.
Until that day comes, the anti-5MWD arguments of you & your brethren are worthless.
Rest times, and limits have been defined since at least 1979. That isn't the problem. It is those who either disregard those rules, or simply use the absurd tactic of doing nothing until they can rest again that are the problem.
Rest times, and limits have been defined since at least 1979. That isn't the problem. It is those who either disregard those rules, or simply use the absurd tactic of doing nothing until they can rest again that are the problem.
The rules of rest have also changed significantly. The big change was the previous edition. Monte Cook changed them for 3e, which is why the "5WMD" is prevalent in 3.x and Pathfinder. No one has to wait, they can simply throw a Rope Trick, hide in it, rest for the 8 hours, come out for 15 minutes. Blow stuff up, and then repeat. Especially with the ease it was to make scrolls.
Now, here's a funny thing, a lot of the older guys who used to use the 5MWD were actually from the Wargamer crews.
Because Wargamers are often all about efficiency, they mostly don't care about 'story', D&D for them was akin to a freeform board game sometimes without the board. And although doing nothing for 12-18 hours, then reloading the gun (Magic User) then coming out for an Alpha Strike, then hiding back into the hole is very efficient and effective, it grates on us 3rd gen (As in AD&D 2e guys/gals with no War Gaming roots) guys because we're not overly pragmatic or efficient on how we read the rules.
Instead of treating the rules as the universe of D&D, we treat the rules as PART of it, and when we hit something that doesn't jibe with our dirty hippie ways of story and flow, we will change it. Or if you're a hardcase, you'll drop the game and seek out another. And another. And another. Like I was. I got better.
The game has changed since '79.The rules of rest have also changed significantly. The big change was the previous edition. Monte Cook changed them for 3e, which is why the "5WMD" is prevalent in 3.x and Pathfinder. No one has to wait, they can sim
The game has changed since '79, you know. It's 2012 now, if you haven't noticed.
The rules of rest have also changed significantly. The big change was the previous edition. Monte Cook changed them for 3e, which is why the "5WMD" is prevalent in 3.x and Pathfinder. No one has to wait, they can simply throw a Rope Trick, hide in it, rest for the 8 hours, come out for 15 minutes. Blow stuff up, and then repeat. Especially with the ease it was to make scrolls.
Now, here's a funny thing, a lot of the older guys who used to use the 5MWD were actually from the Wargamer crews.
Because Wargamers are often all about efficiency, they mostly don't care about 'story', D&D for them was akin to a freeform board game sometimes without the board. And although doing nothing for 12-18 hours, then reloading the gun (Magic User) then coming out for an Alpha Strike, then hiding back into the hole is very efficient and effective, it grates on us 3rd gen (As in AD&D 2e guys/gals with no War Gaming roots) guys because we're not overly pragmatic or efficient on how we read the rules.
Instead of treating the rules as the universe of D&D, we treat the rules as PART of it, and when we hit something that doesn't jibe with our dirty hippie ways of story and flow, we will change it. Or if you're a hardcase, you'll drop the game and seek out another. And another. And another. Like I was. I got better.
And resting rules have changed too, but they have always existed. Those who choose to ignore them, or use absurd tactics aren't going to be disuaded by a new rule. Why is this so hard to understand? They have never been playing RAW, why should they start because a new rule is concocted?
Also, we disproved the Rope Trick myth several weeks ago. Please stop using it as a proof. Rope Trick isn't even viable as a spell recovery resting spot until at least 8th level (in 3e). Something is allowing the 5MWD tactic long before it becomes "unpreventable." My guess is that "something" is the DM.
So we agree that the old time wargamers don't get the basic premise of cooperative role-playing games, and pervert the rules. Now we're getting somewhere.
And resting rules have changed too, but they have always existed. Those who choose to ignore them, or use absurd tactics aren't going to be disuaded by a new rule. Why is this so hard to understand? They have never been playing RAW, why should the
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed by the Community leads to determine if it should be permanently closed, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed by the Community leads to determine if it should be permanently closed, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.
, if its the latter I'm not sure there is anything I can do to help you because it is a fairly simple core concept. The story fix is to provide plot points and viable reasons as to why sleeping is not the best option that is all. It can take multiple forms. I'm done giving examples because none of you care to even understand the underlying point...
You're going to be so dead as soon as I memorise the right spell
Well, not til later today. 
-v
l
)
The exact time depends a lot on individuals and what is going on, but I doubt it is much longer than 15 minutes for most people (certainly the time I keep in mind when switching around between groups if they happen to split up).
