..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I've provided a lot of proof. You just haven't bothered to read the other thread where I present it.
Link?
No where did I insist it was omnipresent. Good DMs and certain play styles may never see a 5MWD, however, my play style which is popular does see it.
If something is broken it WOULD be omnipresent. That is how something is defined as broken...something BROKEN dominates the metagame to the point that it is always the clear option. If something is dominating a LOCAL metagame but not the metagame as a whole then it is not broken...it is an issue with that local metagame and nothing else. This it the equivalent of a Magic deck being unbeatable among a group of friends...but that would get utterly spanked in any tournament scenario. It is not broken. The people playing against it just can't overcome it. It's a matter of skill or knowledge or environmental factors. NOTHING MORE.
It takes quite a bit more than competency. It takes a particular play style and a good DM...
...so, 5mwd is a problem if you have a bad DM with an unworkable playstyle.
Okay agreed. Hence, problem is with HOW things are being played. Not WHAT is being played.
Yes, they need to find a way to balance the classes that doesn't involve the time segment "day".
Here is what you don't understand. When something that is not broken is "fixed" all it lends itself is to a new strategy that you will yell BROKEN at. What if the time segment is hour? Okay then the group stops every hour. What if the time segment is weak? Okay they stop and wait a week. What if it is 10 minutes? Then they only move in ten minute increments.
As long as you do not address the ROOT CAUSE you will never fix the "problem" because you are only treating a symptom. The game is being poorly run. Period.
Wouldn't it be cool if it was though? WotC needs to try to include the most play styles and looking at the thousands of posts in these threads, I'd say my play style is at least popular enough to warrant trying to make 5E play with...
No. It wouldn't be cool if it was becasue it'd be a half-assed car and a half-assed submersible. When I buy a car, I want a car. Additionally, if your play style is simply one that is unworkably bad and poorly run, no amount of support will help it. Your players will continue to exploit (knowingly or unknowingly) your lack of capability ('your' being used in the non-specific sense...so don't fly off the handle)
I don't know what are you trying to say?
The guides are written to give you the tools to review the COUNTLESS interactions in the game.
I covered both. 6*6 moves some of which don't interact. There aren't a 'million' variables...
That is only ONE character vs character interaction. You cannot judge if Ryu is BROKEN unless you compare him to EVERY CHARACTER. You need to break him down versus EVERYONE.
Also, again, that is 6*6 moves JUST for standing position. Then there is standing vs jumping, jumping vs standing, jumping vs jumping, standing vs crouching ETC ETC ETC. The number of interactions is MASSIVE. ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
Yes, but only 6*6 of those can come up in any one fight. See this whole tangent is so off topic its becoming harmful to the conversation. What was your original point when you started this street fighter tangent, other than a distraction?
You said a video game can't be broken down like a role playing game can be into mathematic interactions. This is so factually wrong it is absurd considering the latter is a programmed entity existing on a computer and the other is a tabletop system involving direct human skewing of everything involved.
A distraction? No, it's just a means to point out the fact that you honestly don't know what you're talking about and are willing to make WILDLY ludicrous claims.
6 * 6 = 36, not 'millions'...
Which means you didn't read. 16 characters...standing vs other states, special moves, throws, command specials, etc. Do the math on it if you doubt it.
Ah, so the personal attacks start nice...
Its a play style, nothing more, nothing less. Every game I DM I get compliments for being a good DM, so its unlikely I am making 'mistakes' or have a 'lack of skill'. Its purely a play style issue interacting with bad mechanics. We know this because they fixed it in 4E and its difficult to have a 5MWD unless someone is intentionally trying to have them...
Here is your problem...if you are NOT ever considering it COULD be YOU causing the problem you have in the game then you will never be able to objectively judge whether or not something is broken. A game designer has to be able to look at themselves first and realize if they're doing something poorly or incorrectly.
Again, back to my earlier point...99.9% (seriously even higher than that) of the time when someone screams that something is broken it is not a broken mechanic but rather someone that has not become introspective and mature enough to look at themselves and see if it's something they're doing so that they can learn to overcome it.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
Exaggerate much? Yeah, its not just me, its a large section of players that rejoiced when 4E highly altered the vancian casting style and fixed the 5MWD by discouraging it and encouraging pushing forward. In other words a big group of people won't play 5E if this problem isn't fixed...
Cool. So no arguement for this then, just me exaggerating?
I don't actually like the Vancian magic system, but I can live with it and don't expect to be able to dissuade the vocal majority in favor of it. However, the resource mechanic associated with Vancian magic I DO like, I just wish it was like 25-35 scalable spells not 500+ individual spells to choose from. I posted about my troubles with vancian spell lists and sizes... what I realized after about twenty posts is that my view was not held by very many people. So I dropped it, I'm not here to lobby for lets make D&D:Zago. If hit a wall, I move 25 feet to the left and continue on.
Good sir, you are hitting a wall.
There has been plenty of simple solutions provided to solve your 5MWD problems, you choose to accept none. If that means you have to continue running a different game you love, 4ed., great! If they come through for you and make a module that forces group cooperation for you, well good. But if a playtesting shows that most people don't want it YOUR way, and they make a game that suits the majority of us, how can you be angry about it?
How can you be angry if the best product for the majority of interested parties isn't the best product for you?
Each of the story suggestions limit the stories I can tell and expect me to change my play style. I wouldn't expect you to change your play style for me either. They need to support both play styles. The main problem here is that people don't want a fix. Half of you can't even admit it might be a problem for the rest of us, the other half expects us to totally change our game up rather than get a small rules that fixes the problem at its source...
You can't expect every RPG that is released to accomodate every playstyle. Especially ones that are so "DM is just an onloooker into this world...."
Let's be more realistic probably something like 5% acknowledge that this 5MWD even exists, most who do recogize it, also know it can be corrected with minor house rules. What's remaining is you and... no one else anymore.
It's cute.
I hope they make a specilal module for Lokaire, I really do. That same module might enable players to play without DM present.
How can you be angry if the best product for the majority of interested parties isn't the best product for you?
Its a play style, nothing more, nothing less. Every game I DM I get compliments for being a good DM, so its unlikely I am making 'mistakes' or have a 'lack of skill'. Its purely a play style issue interacting with bad mechanics. We know this because they fixed it in 4E and its difficult to have a 5MWD unless someone is intentionally trying to have them...
Okay... so now I'm honestly a little confused.
Your prefered playstyle frequently results in the 5MWD, but you're constantly getting complimented on your DMing skills. So where exactly is your problem?
Compromise means both parties didn't get what they wanted. We should be working toward a Win/Win instead where both parties get what they want.
A compromise can be a win/win situation, even if both sides didn't get exactly what it wanted. You can be very sure that if I and my neighbor each wanted 1 million dollars, but we were forced to compromise at 500k each, we'd both still be very happy with the result.
The basic dungeon crawl module is made to be simplistic and easy to run. They are little more than mechanics exercises. In other words, it's for beginner DMs to get their feet wet.
And they're also very iconic of D&D. If the 5MWD breaks them, then there's a problem.
If the choice comes to either eliminating dungeon crawls or eliminating the 5MWD, I'll pick the 5MWD to die in a fire.
If you have to eliminate an iconic adventure type of D&D, you better have a damn good reason why the 5MWD is so important that it must exist.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Cool. So no arguement for this then, just me exaggerating?
I don't actually like the Vancian magic system, but I can live with it and don't expect to be able to dissuade the vocal majority in favor of it. However, the resource mechanic associated with Vancian magic I DO like, I just wish it was like 25-35 scalable spells not 500+ individual spells to choose from.
Couldn't agree more! There should be a simpler structure to spells where they can be tweaked to have different strengths/elements/areas/etc instead of just making 40 bazillion different variations. They should be teaching to fish instead of handing over tuna and ahi tuna and trout and rainbow trout and blahblahblah. Enough variations on a theme...just give us the means to create themes.
Yeah. I've heard compelling arguments from wizard lovers that really, really, like the feel of a rich vancian system, which I get, but I feel like keeping the core mechanics simple and versatile is best. Even my whole group was like, "Why did you complain about Vancian magic, dude?" I eventually conceded that too many people were just in LOVE with it, and my greater pursuit of simplicity and minimalism has a few minor weaknesses in way of character and flavor.
I would be very excited if they released a module that was essentially a spell builder, allowing players make their own spells, and let them be scalable, that's would be a sweet bonus for us in the minority.
Alas... there is dignity in compromise (Take notes Lokiare).
Compromise means both parties didn't get what they wanted. We should be working toward a Win/Win instead where both parties get what they want. You can start by not denying that other have experienced it and that your solutions might infringe on our play styles...
Wrong. Compromise means that each side makes concessions. Doesn't mean that no body gets what they want, just means nobody gets EVERYTHING they want.
I think the problem you have with the book design is the same problem you observe in your games. Failure to cooperate and compromise, failure to change yourself, your group dynamics, or the rules to make your groups experience better.... You can call that a "playstyle," but its not, it is mind set that creates play-styles like the 5MWD.
Anyway, I already know that I am not going to get everything I want. You have been provided with the tools for win/win if you chose to use them. Your style can never infringe on mine, even if it was mandatory rules in the final book. Because my master isn't 'The Book' its the 'Players.' I change the game to fit my 'players' playstyle. You aren't bringing up problems with the sytem that are so pervasive that they break the game, if that was problem then everyone would acknowledge the problem.
The basic dungeon crawl module is made to be simplistic and easy to run. They are little more than mechanics exercises. In other words, it's for beginner DMs to get their feet wet.
And they're also very iconic of D&D. If the 5MWD breaks them, then there's a problem.
If the choice comes to either eliminating dungeon crawls or eliminating the 5MWD, I'll pick the 5MWD to die in a fire.
If you have to eliminate an iconic adventure type of D&D, you better have a damn good reason why the 5MWD is so important that it must exist.
No one is saying it should exist. A lot of people are saying it doesn't. I was initially in favor of finding mechanical solutions to help people who have this problem, but after you and others said that it doesn't have anything to do with the players and is exclusively a mechanical problem, I'm not so inclined anymore. As I have always said, if it was an issue inherent to the mechanics, it would manifest with every group at some point. The fact alone that it hasn't happened to any of the several groups I have been in in 12 years proves that.
As I have always said, if it was an issue inherent to the mechanics, it would manifest with every group at some point. The fact alone that it hasn't happened to any of the several groups I have been in in 12 years proves that.
No, it really doesn't prove anything like that. Mechanical problems don't always manifest in all groups. 3E polymorph was broken beyond belief, but the problem didn't manifest in some groups because some PC groups just never used polymorph, or didn't turn into the broken forms with it. But yeah, the spell is still broken, even if some groups never used it or never used it to break the game. Gate was also ridiculously broken, but most groups wouldn't know because so few games even got high enough level to use it. Again, mechanical problem that most groups will never see manifest.
The fact that your PCs weren't imaginative/cheesy enough to come up with the 5MWD doesn't show that it's not a mechanical issue, it just shows that your PCs didn't think up that tactic. But the fact that your PCs happened not to use it doesn't mean that it isn't a mechanical problem.
No, it really doesn't prove anything like that. Mechanical problems don't always manifest in all groups.
Sure, the fact that it never happened to any of the groups I was in over the course of 12 years just means that we didn't encounter it. What you're talking about here is proving a negative, which in most cases is completely impossible. However, there is enough evidence to show that it is not a systemic problem. If it were, then it should be a lot more common than what it is. The fact that there are so many that say they have never had a problem with this is not necessarily concrete proof, but it is strong evidence that we are not looking at a systemic issue.
3E polymorph was broken beyond belief, but the problem didn't manifest in some groups because some PC groups just never used polymorph, or didn't turn into the broken forms with it. But yeah, the spell is still broken, even if some groups never used it or never used it to break the game. Gate was also ridiculously broken, but most groups wouldn't know because so few games even got high enough level to use it. Again, mechanical problem that most groups will never see manifest.
You would think these problems would show up in 12 years of multi-group gaming. Well, they did. Unlike this mythical systemic 5mwd.
The fact that your PCs weren't imaginative/cheesy enough
Stop with the baseless assumptions. You're moving into a hasty generalization and ruling out counter-evidence on shaky grounds again. Remember what that's called? No True Scotsman. As I said earlier, they thought of it, and dismissed it as a regularly reliable tactic because they didn't like the vulnerable position that it left them in afterwards.
But the fact that your PCs happened not to use it doesn't mean that it isn't a mechanical problem.
This statement is actually true, simply because proving a negative is generally impossible. What it does do, given how many groups have said they haven't run into this problem over the course of decades, is provide pretty strong counter-evidence. If you want to prove that 5mwd is a systemic problem, you're going to need a much better answer than "All those groups never thought of it," especially when several of those groups were optimizers, thought of the tactic, and dismissed it. Keep in mind, these are groups that have as one of their lesser min/maxing accomplishments being the forcing of a weakness to fire on red dragons without resorting to things like wish or miracle.
However, there is enough evidence to show that it is not a systemic problem. If it were, then it should be a lot more common than what it is.
It's apparently pretty common. By the poll on the other thread it's at about 25% of groups have had a problem with the 5MWD. That's pretty significant if 1 out of 4 groups had an issue with it.
It's also common enough that a term was created to describe it.
You would think these problems would show up in 12 years of multi-group gaming. Well, they did. Unlike this mythical systemic 5mwd.
So apparently anything you personally didn't experience can't possibly exist? Well it's good to know that apparently you believe that in 12 years of gaming you would have encountered every possible problem there is.
Do you also deny the existence of countries you haven't seen first hand? Because apparently if you ain't seen it, it can't possibly exist, right?
Stop with the baseless assumptions. You're moving into a hasty generalization and ruling out counter-evidence on shaky grounds again. Remember what that's called? No True Scotsman. As I said earlier, they thought of it, and dismissed it as a regularly reliable tactic because they didn't like the vulnerable position that it left them in afterwards.
If your PCs were worried about being vulnerable then they weren't creative enough.
Teleport yourselves into a lead-lined room, then sleep. You can't be scried and nobody knows where you teleported to. It's risk-free unless the DM is being vindictive.
It's very easy to prevent the nighttime ambush once you hit mid levels.
