As far as I'm ware there is no "grandfathering" of 3.0 rules into 3.5, as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure that its explicitly stated that if a 3.0 peace of material wasn't updated it's exclusively up to a DM as to weather or not to even involve it in the game. Further more seeing as how anything outside of the three core books (MM, DMG, PHB) everything else is supplemental, meaning the rules in book of exalted deeds are just more guidelines as what the game designers feel is traditional of thee "good" alignment spectrum, and up do personal DM consternation. Certain things in D&D are considered base line evil, animating dead for instance, but once again you can find neutral motivations for necromancy, or even good reasons. The ebberon setting for example has a prestige class that mixes paladin with necromantic themes. As far as I have read into it, anything alignment base is subject to DM discretion. Once again to point out how the game would be unplayable by your understanding, every commoner in the game would be inherently evil for not charging their chickens into the abyss to fight mains and dretches to the death.
There is so much wrong with this, I don't know where to start.
Please look up the definition of rules, and then come back.
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
If you can't finish something, or at least stall and severly damage something in one round as a caster, urdoinitwrong. And if you're a melee, you really shouldn't care.
"Stall and severely damage" can be readily translated as "leave my enemy alive with the opportunity to put me right back in an antimagic field". If your enemy is using antimagic and doesn't have even the most basic means to prevent you from moving away, they're the one doing something wrong.
The only attacks it'll shield you against are weak enough not to bother worrying about. Oh, and it's beat by a large number of spells in a standard buff routine.
It's a constant chunk out of any relevant attack or other cause of adventuring damage, which all adds up. And if your enemies are throwing out heavy attacks, that chunk can be the difference between being active and bleeding out on the ground.
I would like to read the part from the Fiendish Codex 1 about failing to kill demons being evil, for the context if nothing else. Which section or page was it from?
BoVD, the section about dealing with fiends.
So was it the BoVD or (one of) the Fiendish Codices?
Even the Book of Vile Darkness has an entire chapter devoted to fiends (as opposed to either Fiendish Codex, where it's the entire book), and demonic elements scattered through the rest of the book, so it would help if you could narrow that down.
The alignment that you currently possess may be objective, but it's the cumulative result of actions taken with intent, and your relation to those actions does matter, as do the circumstances. Stabbing a kobold to stop him from gutting your helpless friend isn't evil; stabbing that same kobold in front of his nonhostile family in order to fill them with hopelessness and despair is evil. It's the same action with different circumstances and intent.
So? Fringe example compared to the number of normal, mundane acts covered.
I've picked outliers to more clearly depict the fact that different ends of the scale exist for the same basic action. But try me; pick a normal mundane action covered by the books and we'll talk about how intent relates to it. Some of them are genuinely things with which exalted characters (and ascetic characters in particular) have no business being involved. Others are more variegated.
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
If you can't finish something, or at least stall and severly damage something in one round as a caster, urdoinitwrong. And if you're a melee, you really shouldn't care.
"Stall and severely damage" can be readily translated as "leave my enemy alive with the opportunity to put me right back in an antimagic field". If your enemy is using antimagic and doesn't have even the most basic means to prevent you from moving away, they're the one doing something wrong.
Uh, no. Again, if you're a wizard who can't escape or kill something in an AMF in one turn, urdoinitwrong.
The only attacks it'll shield you against are weak enough not to bother worrying about. Oh, and it's beat by a large number of spells in a standard buff routine.
It's a constant chunk out of any relevant attack or other cause of adventuring damage, which all adds up. And if your enemies are throwing out heavy attacks, that chunk can be the difference between being active and bleeding out on the ground.
Except that anything that does so little damage that it's blocked isn't going to be a threat anyways.
Plus? DR is totally inferior to, say, the smoking weapon enhancement? Any other easy miss chance?
I'm not familiar with the smoking weapon enchantment. Anything common?
Really? I was under the impression that the Smoking enhancement was common knowledge. It's in Lords of Darkness.
But, beyond that, smokesticks? Blur? All of those miss-chance armors? Mirror Image? Shadow Sibling? Minor(Read actually good) Cloak of Displacement? Every other Shadow Hand boost and their dogs?
I would like to read the part from the Fiendish Codex 1 about failing to kill demons being evil, for the context if nothing else. Which section or page was it from?
BoVD, the section about dealing with fiends.
So was it the BoVD or (one of) the Fiendish Codices?
BoVD.
Even the Book of Vile Darkness has an entire chapter devoted to fiends (as opposed to either Fiendish Codex, where it's the entire book), and demonic elements scattered through the rest of the book, so it would help if you could narrow that down.
I don't remember and don't have BoVD on me at the moment. Sorry.
The alignment that you currently possess may be objective, but it's the cumulative result of actions taken with intent, and your relation to those actions does matter, as do the circumstances. Stabbing a kobold to stop him from gutting your helpless friend isn't evil; stabbing that same kobold in front of his nonhostile family in order to fill them with hopelessness and despair is evil. It's the same action with different circumstances and intent.
So? Fringe example compared to the number of normal, mundane acts covered.
I've picked outliers to more clearly depict the fact that different ends of the scale exist for the same basic action. But try me; pick a normal mundane action covered by the books and we'll talk about how intent relates to it. Some of them are genuinely things with which exalted characters (and ascetic characters in particular) have no business being involved. Others are more variegated.
Except outliers create a bad argument.
See, if a kobold attacked you, and you killed it, you'd be killing it for selfish purposes and fall. Eating meat will make you fall. Not going on a suicide run into the Abyss will make you fall. Worshiping Pelor will make you fall. Accidentally using a poisoned weapon will make you fall. Using weed will make you fall. Drinking spiked could make you fall.
Uh, no. Again, if you're a wizard who can't escape or kill something in an AMF in one turn, urdoinitwrong.
What would you suggest the Wizard do at this point? Most, if not all, of the character's spells are useless (unless you knew specifically to expect AMF) and, since the field moves with the caster, all it would take is a character specialised in keeping you nearby to completely neuter you. This also doesn't take into effect the fact that you might also be fighting a Cleric which, when you've only got your combat ability, generally spells doom for a Wizard.
Uh, no. Again, if you're a wizard who can't escape or kill something in an AMF in one turn, urdoinitwrong.
What would you suggest the Wizard do at this point? Most, if not all, of the character's spells are useless (unless you knew specifically to expect AMF) and, since the field moves with the caster, all it would take is a character specialised in keeping you nearby to completely neuter you. This also doesn't take into effect the fact that you might also be fighting a Cleric which, when you've only got your combat ability, generally spells doom for a Wizard.
First thing to think of is flight. Bury them to death with Stone Shape. Kill them with an orb or fifty. Wall of Force/Forcecage/Prismatic fun. AMFs aren't a threat, they're a minor nuisance.
Of course, this whole topic of a wizard in an AMF ignores a larger problem: What the HELL is a wizard doing out without his tinfoil hat?
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
But, beyond that, smokesticks? Blur? All of those miss-chance armors? Mirror Image? Shadow Sibling? Minor(Read actually good) Cloak of Displacement? Every other Shadow Hand boost and their dogs?
You can't really consider anything except the items when comparing to a Vow of Poverty; everything else the character could potentially exist in their character design anyway. Ironically, apart from the smokesticks, an antimagic field would already be killing them stone-dead, and the smokestick is just as bad for its wielder.
See, if a kobold attacked you, and you killed it, you'd be killing it for selfish purposes and fall. Eating meat will make you fall. Not going on a suicide run into the Abyss will make you fall. Worshiping Pelor will make you fall. Accidentally using a poisoned weapon will make you fall. Using weed will make you fall. Drinking spiked could make you fall.
Self-defense isn't evil, nor is meat-eating, nor a lack of stupidity. The accidental use of poison or drugs is only a problem for those with things like Vow of Abstinence, and ways exist for them to recover from events that could shake their surety.
The Pelor example is an example of deliberate hyperbole, pretending that Pelor is evil for comedic effect. Not, of course, that a good god can't occaisonally do things that fit more directly with their portfolio than their alignment, since few gods are actually exalted.
Also? Look up the damnation section in FC whatever one it's in.
You mean the entirety of two books? They're both about fiends who make dooming mortals their daily business.
If you could be a little more specific with your references, it would help to clarify the specific points that you're addressing.
The whole damnation points nonsense that makes genocide the most efficient path to redemption.
Unless you can give me some hint as to where they are, I'm going to have to treat them as imaginary, since it's the most effective categorization until more information emerges.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
But, beyond that, smokesticks? Blur? All of those miss-chance armors? Mirror Image? Shadow Sibling? Minor(Read actually good) Cloak of Displacement? Every other Shadow Hand boost and their dogs?
You can't really consider anything except the items when comparing to a Vow of Poverty;everything else the character could potentially exist in their character design anyway
Which I'm not. Wizards can't memorize spells without books(Unless VoP changes that), and Shadow Hand maneuvers are quite cheap. Miss chances are quite cheap.
Ironically, apart from the smokesticks, an antimagic field would already be killing them stone-dead, and the smokestick is just as bad for its wielder.
Don't you remember the whole deal about intelligent items?
See, if a kobold attacked you, and you killed it, you'd be killing it for selfish purposes and fall. Eating meat will make you fall. Not going on a suicide run into the Abyss will make you fall. Worshiping Pelor will make you fall. Accidentally using a poisoned weapon will make you fall. Using weed will make you fall. Drinking spiked could make you fall.
Self-defense isn't evil,
Killing for a selfish purpose. Evil
nor is meat-eating,
Party to murder for selfish reasons. Evil
nor a lack of stupidity. The accidental use of poison or drugs is only a problem for those with things like Vow of Abstinence,
Drugs are Evil, period. Therefore, any Exalted character automatically falls. Try again.
and ways exist for them to recover from events that could shake their surety.
*facepalm*
The Pelor example is an example of deliberate hyperbole, pretending that Pelor is evil for comedic effect.
Meh. Worshipping any evil deity, even unknowingly is Evil. This is the problem with the Alignment system.
Not, of course, that a good god can't occaisonally do things that fit more directly with their portfolio than their alignment, since few gods are actually exalted.
Also? Look up the damnation section in FC whatever one it's in.
You mean the entirety of two books? They're both about fiends who make dooming mortals their daily business.
If you could be a little more specific with your references, it would help to clarify the specific points that you're addressing.
The whole damnation points nonsense that makes genocide the most efficient path to redemption.
Unless you can give me some hint as to where they are, I'm going to have to treat them as imaginary, since it's the most effective categorization until more information emerges.
Fiendish Codex II, page 20-something or 30-something, IIRC.
Look, I'm sorry you don't like the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that those are the rules.Alignment it absolutely objective, and Evil acts are always Evil, period, regardless of how there are Good versions of them that do the exact same thing.
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
Except it is no longer produced by a magic item. It is now a natural ability of a construct.
The magic item is still a magic item, it simply happens to be a construct that's also a magic item. The two aren't mutually exclusive, since item is not synonymous with "object" in D&D.
Wizards can't memorize spells without books(Unless VoP changes that), and Shadow Hand maneuvers are quite cheap. Miss chances are quite cheap.
Wizards aren't the only class with access to those spells (if nothing elese, almost all wizard spells are available to sorcerers, and vice versa), so they're assets available to classes that can take the vow, ditto for Shadow Hand maneuvers. For the sake of completeness, I'll note that there is a variant from one of the Dragon magazines that could get around the spellbook requirement, but since it still requires a costly element for learning additional spells, it doesn't serve the wizard any better for the purposes of Vow of Poverty, unless someone has a way to negate that cost.
Don't you remember the whole deal about intelligent items?
Addressed above. Their abilities as magic items are still derived from being magic items, and are just as vulnerable as ever. Many of their abilities that are specifically gained as part of being intelligent are spell-like, so those can also be affected by antimagic.
A few of their abilities, like their senses, their mental ability scores, and their ranks in the specified skills, could be reasonably considered to be natural parts of them, but that's certainly not true of the benefits they gain from being a magic item in the first place, and those are our point of focus here.
Defending your interests from direct aggression isn't selfish in any real determination of the word, otherwise everyone would be evil simply by virtue of having an immune system.
Again, the slightest hint of self-interest does not make an action worthy of the term "self-interest".
If you want to avoid meat-eating, you can take a Vow of Purity. Since meat-eating is specifically mentioned by the vow, and not for exalted characters in general, we can safely assume that exalted characters can normally eat meat.
I would have thought that it's obvious, but since you need it pointed out, Pelor isn't an evil god. If nothing else, he's specifically noted as good, consequently, he's good if you want to be even vaguely in touch with the system of alignment.
Fiendish Codex II, page 20-something or 30-something, IIRC.
Assuming that you're talking about corruption points, from page 30-31, the fact that removing corruption points requires you to give up all benefits gained from the relevant actions, and apologizing, and making restitution, and making a donation, and receiving an atonement if your rating is too high, it's hard to see how it makes genocide the most effective path to redemption. It's a nice path to being flat broke, though.
Alignment it absolutely objective, and Evil acts are always Evil, period, regardless of how there are Good versions of them that do the exact same thing.
Considering that you used Pelor as an example of evil despite him being explicitly stated as having a good alignment, I'm going to take your adherence to the actual rules with a grain of salt, the fact that you're using an absurdly extremist view of them notwithstanding.
However, the interpretation you're using does explain why you think the alignment system doesn't work.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Except it is no longer produced by a magic item. It is now a natural ability of a construct.
The magic item is still a magic item, it simply happens to be a construct that's also a magic item. The two aren't mutually exclusive, since item is not synonymous with "object" in D&D.
Irrelevant. Construct's natural abilities do not stop in an AMF. These abilities are not specifically SLAs or SUs, therefore they are natural abilities, which function in an AMF. Therefore, an inteligent magic item doesn't cease to function in an AMF.
Once again, those are the rules. I'm sorry if you don't like them, but they are the rules.
Wizards can't memorize spells without books(Unless VoP changes that), and Shadow Hand maneuvers are quite cheap. Miss chances are quite cheap.
Wizards aren't the only class with access to those spells (if nothing elese, almost all wizard spells are available to sorcerers, and vice versa), so they're assets available to classes that can take the vow, ditto for Shadow Hand maneuvers. For the sake of completeness, I'll note that there is a variant from one of the Dragon magazines that could get around the spellbook requirement, but since it still requires a costly element for learning additional spells, it doesn't serve the wizard any better for the purposes of Vow of Poverty, unless someone has a way to negate that cost.
Sorcerers are more dependant on gear than wizards. And, bro? Wondrous Item in ToB. Maneuvers are cheap.
Ironically, apart from the smokesticks, an antimagic field would already be killing them stone-dead, and the smokestick is just as bad for its wielder.
Don't you remember the whole deal about intelligent items?
Addressed above. Their abilities as magic items are still derived from being magic items, and just as vulnerable as ever. Many of their abilities that are specifically gained as part of being intelligent are spell-like, so those can also be affected by antimagic.
Irrelevant. Even if their abilities were derived from being magic items, they are not magic items. They are contructs that have the abilities of magic items. Now, the intelligent item's Bless SLA won't work, but its actual abilities will work. Because those are the rules, regardless of whether or not you like them
A few of their abilities, like their senses, their mental ability scores, and their ranks in the specified skills, could be reasonably considered to be natural parts of them, but that's certainly not true of the benefits they gain from being a magic item in the first place, and those are our point of focus here.
Totally irrelevant. The magic item abilities are untyped, and therfore natural abilties according to the rules compendium. Totally mundane.
Defending your interests from direct aggression isn't selfish in any real determination of the word, otherwise everyone would be evil simply by virtue of having an immune system.
It is in self-intrest. That's the only requirement. Therefore, murder in self-defense is evil. Period. It may or may not qualify as unintentional, but Exalted doesn't care. Evil act>fall.
Again, the slightest hint of self-interest does not make an action worthy of the term "self-interest".
Nope. You're wrong, yet again. It is either self-intrest or it isn't. Period. In this case it is.
If you want to avoid meat-eating, you can take a Vow of Purity. Since meat-eating is specifically mentioned by the vow, and not for exalted characters in general, we can safely assume that exalted characters can normally eat meat.
You could assume that, but that would be wrong. The rules are quite clear. It is killing for selfish reasons. Therefore, it is evil. Period.
I would have thought that it's obvious, but since you need it pointed out, Pelor isn't an evil god. If nothing else, he's specifically noted as good, consequently, he's good if you want to be even vaguely in touch with the system of alignment.
Fiendish Codex II, page 20-something or 30-something, IIRC.
Assuming that you're talking about corruption points, from page 30-31, the fact that removing corruption points requires you to give up all benefits gained from the relevant actions, and apologizing, and making restitution, and making a donation, and receiving an atonement if your rating is too high, it's hard to see how it makes genocide the most effective path to redemption. It's a nice path to being flat broke, though.
Don't have it on me, so I can't quote exact text, but it's quite simple. If you kill everyone you ever wronged, and then kill everyone who would be wronged by the killing on the wronged, and so on, you have eventually no one who you've wronged. Then, you go and humiliate a subordinate(Speficially called out as a corrupt act in there somewhere), make ammends, and atone.
Alignment it absolutely objective, and Evil acts are always Evil, period, regardless of how there are Good versions of them that do the exact same thing.
Considering that you used Pelor as an example of evil despite him being explicitly stated as having a good alignment, I'm going to take your adherence to the actual rules with a grain of salt, the fact that you're using an absurdly extremist view of them notwithstanding.
The Pelor thing was a joke. A joke that helps show the absurdity of the whole thing.
However, the interpretation you're using does explain why you think the alignment system doesn't work.
No, you still don't get it. Let me try to explain it again: I am doing no interpreting. Only using the exact rules. By the rules, eating meat is an evil act. By the rules, someone who drank spiked punch, or accidentally cut themselves with a poisoned knife is not Exalted. Those are the rules. You're trying to add shades of grey, and "levels" of how evil something is, or why something shouldn't count. The issue is, the rules are binary. It either is evil, which is a totally objective thing in D&D), or it isn't. Period. There is no "middle ground" in there.
I am saying the alignment system is absurd, because the rules say it's absurd. Morality doesn't work in a binary fashion, and it is not objective. The system just does not function.
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
