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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 1:45PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 20, 2004
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I was just taking the new survey when this idea came to me. I've been concerned about saving throws in D&D Next since they came out. For one thing, I much prefer the always-roll-attack method of 4e, and think that many of the spells should be shifted to that method, even if some saves remain.
But if and when saving throws remain, there is an issue. With saves against all 6 stats, that's a whole lot of ways to attack and no way to prevent vulnerability. I understand wanting to jetison Fortitude, Reflex, and Will as they add an extra layer of complexity without much benefit. I mean, each really just represents the better of two stats.
So here's the solution: whenever a save is called for, list TWO saves that the target can attempt to avoid the effect. To me, this makes intuitive sense and is a happy medium between old-school and new school. An attack on the mind can be staved off by EITHER the calmness and orderliness of one's mind (Wisdom) or the raw force of personality and confidence (Charisma).
What say you?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 1:52PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Why should you have a way to prevent all vulnerability?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 1:53PM
#3
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Why should you have a way to prevent all vulnerability?
That was my immediate question as well.
My two copper.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:06PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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So, would each individual spell list the two attributes that can be used to save against it? It sound a lot like 4E, but with more options. Fort = Str or Con, Ref = Int or Dex, Will = Wis or Cha. Now you're adding stuff like Str or Wis, Dex or Cha, and Wis or Con.
My main issue might be the justification for why these saves would exist, and what kind of effects would require those types of saves. I can see a few, for example, Str or Dex might be a great save versus Black Tentacles; Int or Wis might a great save versus a Sepia Snake Sigil; Cha or Con might make a great save versus Phantasmal Killer.
I agree that the existing system allows for too many vulnerabilities - it forces players to build balanced characters so they don't get hosed by effects that target their dump stats. With your mechanic, characters could safely have one dump stat without needing it for saves, and characters with two dump stats (I often play characters with 8-11 Str and Dex) would only be in serious trouble about 1/36th of the time, on average if all saves are equally represented.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:11PM
#5
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When did we get in the business of making characters with no weaknesses the norm? Pretty much every hero has a tragic flaw :P
My two copper.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:12PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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it forces players to build balanced characters so they don't get hosed by effects that target their dump stats. With your mechanic, characters could safely have one dump stat without needing it for saves, and characters with two dump stats (I often play characters with 8-11 Str and Dex) would only be in serious trouble about 1/36th of the time, on average if all saves are equally represented.
Why is encouraging dump stats a good thing?
The idea of a dump stat is awful, and all six stats as defenses is the single biggest thing that I've seen that could help prevent dump stats from happening in the first place.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:12PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2007
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Eh, this is more about the spell, trap, etc... than making it a normal design concept.
Maybe something like Phantansomal Killer can use this concept, but not fireball.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:16PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Oh, sure! Individual spells can absolutely have more than one potential kind of save. That's fine. That's both a balancing feature and something identifying to the spell itself. Adds flavor. Some spells have only one, some spells have more than one. Different spells is good.
It's making it a system-wide thing that I object to, the "whenever a save is called for" part in the OP.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:23PM
#9
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The idea of a dump stat is awful, and all six stats as defenses is the single biggest thing that I've seen that could help prevent dump stats from happening in the first place.
No it won't. Not while stats are added to attack rolls.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 08, 2012 - 2:29PM
#10
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The idea of a dump stat is awful, and all six stats as defenses is the single biggest thing that I've seen that could help prevent dump stats from happening in the first place.
No it won't. Not while stats are added to attack rolls.
He's talking about the idea of a dump stat, not top stat. Top stats will always exist as long as stats add to attack rolls, yes. But that has nothing to do with someone saying "I don't need charisma. It doesn't add to anything I care about anyway". Well now it does. They all do, and making that choice became much more meaningful.
My two copper.
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