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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 2:54PM
#61
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I really am enjoying these articles Wrecan. While, not a fan of 4e by any stretch, these do give some insight on what was going on. Looking forward to the rest of them.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 5:14PM
#62
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Wrecan, could you explain what you mean by "monster bloat?" You seem to be against it, but I'm not sure what you consider bloat.
"People want balance but can't accept this homogenization that occurs as a result of that balance being implemented. then they complain that the fighter is weaker than the wizard ad nauseam.: - Teitan
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 6:20PM
#63
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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For me, "monster bloat" is the requirement that you have s many variants of one type of monster that it becomes a chore for the DM to sift through them and decide what is right for this encounter. There are 39 heroic tier zombies between levels 1 and 10 in the compendium (and 55 zombies altogether).
There is a charnel zombie and a flameborn zombie at the same level. There is a hulking zombie and a zombie hulk. There is a grasping zombie and a zombie strangler. There is a boneyard zombie and a zombie gravedigger. It's confusing and laborious to sift through them to determine what is the right one.
Wouldn't it be better to have a simple zombie and then easy rules for sticking a little more flavor onto the zombie? But monster themes came out too late in the edition. The Sims article was lauding the variant zombies as a step forward. And it was a novelty. But as monster vairants proliferated, the novelty wore off and the tedium set in.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 7:05PM
#64
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Personally, I see it as a result of having a monster system that has 30 levels and several roles (Brute, Striker, Lurker, etc.). A common monster like zombie would exist at most levels and have different roles. Intersecting role and level alone, I'm surprised that they're aren't more than 55 zombies.
Nevertheless, I see where you're coming from, with the similar zombies. How does one know if one wants a Zombie Hulk or Hulking Zombie just by looking at their names? Overlapping themes and names are a good barometer of 'bloat', even for D&D (which is notorious for vomiting out a never-ending stream of monster books).
"People want balance but can't accept this homogenization that occurs as a result of that balance being implemented. then they complain that the fighter is weaker than the wizard ad nauseam.: - Teitan
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 8:15PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2009
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I agree that a generic monster and then themes to add variation would have been prefered. But I also think having a ready made monster for each role works for some monsters (zombies are not one them).
In 4e it easy to adjust level, so you don't need multiple levels of a monster, but I think they could have explained the relationship between level and sub-role (minion, standard, elite, solo) better. How you can use that technique to customize monsters and move them around in level simply by changing there sub-role.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 8:44PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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IN 3.5 there were some feats which added abilites to animate dead spells. Closest we came to testing them out was where we had a Drow campaign and the Cleric of Lolth tried a few out on her pet skeliton.
You want more than 1 type of zombie IMHO but 55 is a bit excessive.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 9:03PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
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For me, "monster bloat" is the requirement that you have s many variants of one type of monster that it becomes a chore for the DM to sift through them and decide what is right for this encounter. There are 39 heroic tier zombies between levels 1 and 10 in the compendium (and 55 zombies altogether).
There is a charnel zombie and a flameborn zombie at the same level. There is a hulking zombie and a zombie hulk. There is a grasping zombie and a zombie strangler. There is a boneyard zombie and a zombie gravedigger. It's confusing and laborious to sift through them to determine what is the right one.
Wouldn't it be better to have a simple zombie and then easy rules for sticking a little more flavor onto the zombie? But monster themes came out too late in the edition. The Sims article was lauding the variant zombies as a step forward. And it was a novelty. But as monster vairants proliferated, the novelty wore off and the tedium set in.
The benefit is that you can have alot of zombies during a long period of time, and it doesn't get stale, because they are diferent from each other, instead of having the one and only zombie or very few variants. Or even better, mix them in a way they have synergy to make it a even bigger challenge that put the PCs on their toes
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6 months ago ::
Dec 22, 2012 - 7:13AM
#68
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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The benefit is that you can have alot of zombies during a long period of time, and it doesn't get stale, because they are diferent from each other, instead of having the one and only zombie or very few variants. Or even better, mix them in a way they have synergy to make it a even bigger challenge that put the PCs on their toes
I know what the benefit is, but that benefit comes at an ever-increasing cost. The more monsters thre are to sift through, the more work the DM needs to go through. And if the only way to have "alot of zombies" is to have individual stat blocks for every variant, then it quickly becomes more trouble than it is worth.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 22, 2012 - 7:45AM
#69
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2009
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The benefit is that you can have alot of zombies during a long period of time, and it doesn't get stale, because they are diferent from each other, instead of having the one and only zombie or very few variants. Or even better, mix them in a way they have synergy to make it a even bigger challenge that put the PCs on their toes
I know what the benefit is, but that benefit comes at an ever-increasing cost. The more monsters thre are to sift through, the more work the DM needs to go through. And if the only way to have "alot of zombies" is to have individual stat blocks for every variant, then it quickly becomes more trouble than it is worth.
I think this benefit is a good one to aim for in design, but there are other ways to go about it. In the beginning of 4e, this approach was novel and it worked well in the early years of the edition. As the edition wore on, the tedium set in. Ideally, the current designers can learn from the experiences of the last edition and find ways to provide the desired versatility and re-usability, without the drawback of bloat. The variant powers we see in the current packet bestiary point to what they are thinking about in this arena and there is some good potential there.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 22, 2012 - 7:55AM
#70
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I think this benefit is a good one to aim for in design, but there are other ways to go about it.
I completely agree. And I think the shift in focus to monster themes was on the right track. It just came too late in the development process for 4e
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