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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 1:41PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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Grab a large sack, throw in several cats and shake. Basically the D&D Editon wars. D&DN has several stated goals such as things like modularity and the like and that is will be designed to attract players of all edtions. Some of you have been noting I have been asking silly questions for the next week or so about what people liked from 4th ed or do PCs expect things at ech level and various other things.
Wizards seems to be trying to reinvent the wheel. Bounded accuracy does not work atm due to expertise dice from the Rogue and fighter to a lesser extent. I'm not a great fan of D&DN skill system either. Tweaking 4th eds or Pathfinders skill system to me would be a better idea even if one wanted lower numbers so no more DC 35 and 40 skill checks. With DCs so low in D&DN with 4-5 PCs rolling even untrained you have a reasonable chance of making anything DC20 or lower by someone in the group. A tweak to 4th eds skill system for example could be something like.
half level +3 instead of 5.
Skill Focus grant advanatge one chosen skill instead of +5.
Add more skills including missing 3.5 skills.
If 20 was still the cap for ability scores one could have +18 to a skill check with advantage by level 20 assuming a 20 in the relevent ability score. Bounded accuracy may have to be stretched to 30 instead of 25 but you get the idea.
But anyway the 3.75 compromise. Alot of people on the forums find the D&DN classes a bit boring. They want to keep the PCs powers within reason atm but the monsters are also really weak. Can't be to hard to scale 4th ed monsters down a bit tweaking them if required. I don't think Kobolds having shift is going to overpower them or upset the 3.5 players. WoTC did actually make a 3.75 game that still has a fanbase now and seems to avoid the poo flinging 3.5/PF and 4th ed tends to attract. That system was Star Wars Saga. What upset me a it back in 2008 was that 4th ed was 4th ed and I was hoping the then new 4th ed would resemble Saga more than what I got. Now I don't want a D&D Saga Ediiton as such but for core rules I would be looking at that system personally as it works well and has not been used in a D&D editon avoiding the use 3.5 or use 4th ed mentality some people have.
Each Saga class looks something like this.
starting abilities
talent
feat
talent
feat.
etc. The feats and talents let you construct the class how you want to to be. It kind of resembles 3.5 in that way. No dead levels for starters and a talent of feat can be a flat umber or an encounter or daily power a'la 4th ed. One could also let you use those talents to add D&DN manuveurs into the game.
Saga races also resemble 4th ed ones but several have the 3.5 -2 stat modifier. One could easily ditch that and while I do prefer 3.xyz over 4th I prefer 4th ed races over D&DN ones. Hmans for example are boring and overpowered in D&DN. One could also port over 4th ed floating ability scores- Ie elves get +2 dex and +2 wis or int. Basically we have.
3.5 style build options.
4th ed encounter/dailies if you want them
Static bonues for pre 3rd ed/3rd ed players.
A core sytem that already works
Easy to convert 4th ed monsters to it. Or 3.5 ones.
Fast to run
Easy to design for.
No dead levels
It still retains BAB but that can be turned into D&DN attack modifiers and Saga did have some problems around things ike Skill Focus Use the Force which won't be a problem in a D&D conversion. Not all the classes would need to follow the talent/feat/talent/feat pattern such as spellcasters since they get spells instead every time they level up. A Ranger talent or class bonus feat for example could grant access to spells like a 3.5 Ranger or you could take a combat feat instead or pick up a 4th ed encounter power. Sneak attack can be a level 1 talent Rogues can take. The designers really only have to design a talent tree and that is not hard. The basic class structure works through to level 20 as well.
lvl 11 talent
lvl 12 feat
lvl 13 talent
level 14 feat.
etc
The bonus class feats are on top of the feats at level 1,3,6,9,12 etc. 4th ed proved you can add powers to feats as well so one would have to be a member of XYZ class to gain a cleric power feat for example as that could be put in the prerequisites.
The core system they are still tinkering with has already been designed in Star Wars Saga. One can throw out class skills and use D&DN style backgrounds. Advantage/disadvantage can easily be plugged into any d20 game and so cn expertise dice which right now cause out of combat problems involving skill checks. An AEDU style class could easily be added and a varient AEDU wizard could easily be designed.
3.75 AEDU wizard
lvl 1. At wills, class features, pick an encounter power and maybe a daily.
level 2 talent
Level 3 feat
evel 4 talent.
Each talent or feat allowing you to get a 4th ed style power or utility. One could have a AEDU wizards and Vancian wizard sit at the same table. Maybe one is from Nerath and the other is an Arkhosian tradition wizard.
Maybe 4th ed players would not get everything they wanted at 1st but if I was WoTC I would bring out a 4th ed style PHB or module very early in the the games release schedule or even have 4 core books on release. THe sytem is a evolution of 3.5 and it can accomodate 4th ed players.
Beats me I is stupid. If enough people like my idea lets unite the fanbase and let Mearls know what we want but in a polite way.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 1:49PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Keep in mind that there are a great many of us that want D&D closer to the editions that existsed long before either of the ones you mentioned.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 1:55PM
#3
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4e people mostly want statigic/tactical depth. AEDU gives both with it's short, mid, and long recharge powers. Add to that the fact that everyone chose 5+ powers from a decently sized list, and your have a start.
guides
Show
my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 1:57PM
#4
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Keep in mind that there are a great many of us that want D&D closer to the editions that existsed long before either of the ones you mentioned.
I have a friend who is a HUGE fan of Saga and pretty much argues for exactly what the OP is advocating.
The issue is that not everyone was happy with 3.X at all... so the "Saga/3.75" option is tantamount to admitting that "one edition to rule them all" is no longer on the horizon.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 2:07PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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Keep in mind that there are a great many of us that want D&D closer to the editions that existsed long before either of the ones you mentioned.
What do you want fomr a pre 3rd ed ediiton of D&DN? Do you like the speed of the game, the simplicity of the rules or do you want level limits to return and fighters to have the ability to gian follwers at 10 and only have weapon specialisation as an option?
What specifically do you want in D&DN from pre 3rd ed?
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 2:15PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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I have only tried two star wars sessions using the saga rules as a player, I remember i found it interesting / had fun, but then we went on to start a FR campaign since we wanted a fantasy game and not a science fiction game. I can not remember any of the game rule details
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 2:15PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Well, that should leave you in perfect position to talk about it in depth then, right?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 2:17PM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Well, that should leave you in perfect position to talk about it in depth then, right?
MWA
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 2:18PM
#9
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Keep in mind that there are a great many of us that want D&D closer to the editions that existsed long before either of the ones you mentioned.
What do you want fomr a pre 3rd ed ediiton of D&DN? Do you like the speed of the game, the simplicity of the rules or do you want level limits to return and fighters to have the ability to gian follwers at 10 and only have weapon specialisation as an option?
What specifically do you want in D&DN from pre 3rd ed?
AD&D 2E
I liked the speed of gameplay and the focus on ability scores. This is already fixed in DDN.
I liked 2nd edition Skills (Proficiencies), honestly its this type of open-ended skill list I'd like to see in DDN. Not quite there yet but easily adaptable in a module.
D&D 4E
DM aids, 4E is the only edition that really addressed the problem of the heavy burden placed on DMs. The edition worked to give tools required to make NPCs/Monsters and Encounters easy to customize and run
D&D 3E
Class structure, Classes for Monsters and NPCs, FEATS and character customization.
SW SAGA
I think it had the best class structure: Talent, Feat, Talent, Feat. Nice progression with no dead levels that is easy to remember and allows for customization.
What is new in DDN that is better then previous editions:
Bounded accuracy
Advantage
Action Economy
Ability based checks
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7 months ago ::
Nov 07, 2012 - 2:19PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2008
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As 3.x is pretty much my least favorite edition the very idea is a non starter.
If you want to play that game more power to ya but I have no interest in it.
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