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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:15PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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Also, often the DM has in fact tried talking to the player, but has gotten the same result anyways, in which case both are really to blame.
I would say that the player would be to blame in this case, without any onus on the DM. I also haven't seen what you're saying here actually pan out. What I have seen, is that more often than not, when things are talked out away from the table, things improve.
I may be a bit of a OOC/IC divide fascist here, but I don't think metagaming concerns such as min/maxing, niche-protection, etc. should ever be met with in-game BS. It is just very difficult to do well without coming across as a bit...childish... If you are DMing then you need to get the players on board with your houserules and rulestweaks. If they don't, then one overpowered player is just a symptom of underlying problems.
If you can't play with the players in your group, well then you can't play with them...
Likewise, if you are player and a DM tells you, well in advance about changes he has to the standard rules in his campaign, then that is what you should deal with.
true on the childish, generally. Although my general response to overly min/maxing is not much better.
Player: Yes! Finally figured out how to twist that grapple rule into a one-round auto-death for everything by 2nd level!
Me: C'mon, dude.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 13, 2012 - 4:20PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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At these low of levels, how much min/maxing can you possibly do? It seems to me like way too low of a level to be overshadowing everyone else.
You'd be surprised. A 4E Tempest Ranger (Ranger|Tempest Fighter hybrid) built as a striker can really rock at level 1, particularly if Human for the extra feat or any of the races that get a nice mobility boost.
I'm told it gets somewhat less impressive in Paragon...
Granted, the character is potentially overshadowing as much because of how conspicuous his effectiveness is, as because of how effective he is. Knocking down 4 enemies including the boss in 3 rounds is showy. The Invoker using a single spell - and then sitting down to read a book - to make sure the Tempest Ranger doesn't get swarmed in the first two rounds is not nearly as showy, but is quite effective. (And the Tempest Ranger thanked him for it.)
Raging barbarian on a horse with a lance. Come here big monster. Gimme that treasure.
Most of the min/maxing I see is actually better described as cheating on dice rolls...
I've seen FOUR 18's on a single character more times than I can count. Even after I gave them 84 points to distribute, they were still asking to 'roll' the dice.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 1:11PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2012
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I may be a bit of a OOC/IC divide fascist here, but I don't think metagaming concerns such as min/maxing, niche-protection, etc. should ever be met with in-game BS. It is just very difficult to do well without coming across as a bit...childish...
This is actually one of those lessons that I learned the hard way that led to a particularly hard crash and burn for one of the groups I ran for in the past.
If you are DMing then you need to get the players on board with your houserules and rulestweaks. If they don't, then one overpowered player is just a symptom of underlying problems.
If you can't play with the players in your group, well then you can't play with them...
Likewise, if you are player and a DM tells you, well in advance about changes he has to the standard rules in his campaign, then that is what you should deal with.
I would put this in my own words but then it would be less perfect.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 14, 2012 - 2:27PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2010
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Can't believe this got to 4 pages. I expected it to be maybe 2 pages at most.
The a GM perspective, I agree that the best approach is to talk to your players. I tried building battle groups around a single player, not because I didn't like him but because his character was so strong it needed it. It was a mistake. Instead of talking to him I just made the campaign more out of combat based. Group liked the story more than the fights anyways. In retrospect I wish I had just talked to him about the problem.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 16, 2012 - 2:08PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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I think it's perfectly wise to cater your characters to whatever the DM is throwing at you.
If he's running a combat-monkey game, then create a combat monkey.
If it's a outdoors, foresty-campaign, then create a skilled elf who's well rounded.
If it's a city campaign, ramp up those social skills.
As a DM, I used to get all pissy when it came to players min-maxing, but then I realized that when all I threw at them was combat encounters and plot-less dungeon crawl scenarios, they were just reacting to what i was handing them.
Now, I kill of the characters with insanity, disease, mutation, and possession and they've realized they've got to make their characters a bit more well-rounded (we're not playing D&D btw, which allows for more types of "injury" than just hp's). Ask your GM to take a look at systems like Smallville, where characters don't only suffer from the endless cycle of hit point loss and maybe he'll be inspired more for your D&D games to give you more plot in the scenarios. It should challenge your player ability a little more, as it appears you've mastered the combat-style campaign.
jh
Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 www.hafnerchiropractic.com
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 10:53PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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I don't know if I missed it somewhere in the thread (I scanned most of it after the OP) but have you tried helping optimize any of the other players in the group? Do the other players think you being so strong is a problem? Do the other players want to be that strong but don't know how / don't want to put the effort into building it / mistakenly think you cant have strong mechanics and strong RP?
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 7:40AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2011
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Min/max a suboptimal class.
Like, if you want to be a striker, min/max a Vampire or a Sorcerer (hard mode, Sorcerer cannot be Dragonborn for minor breath cheese). Tell the DM that you like min/maxing your character, but you wanted to take a character that wouldn't outshine everyone when min/maxed.
Or min/max a leader. No one minds a min/maxed leader (because everyone feels they're doing really well)
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:13PM
#38
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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Min/max a suboptimal class.
Like, if you want to be a striker, min/max a Vampire or a Sorcerer (hard mode, Sorcerer cannot be Dragonborn for minor breath cheese). Tell the DM that you like min/maxing your character, but you wanted to take a character that wouldn't outshine everyone when min/maxed.
Or min/max a leader. No one minds a min/maxed leader (because everyone feels they're doing really well)
Min/Maxed Lazylord is good for this.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 7:01PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Min/max a suboptimal class.
Like, if you want to be a striker, min/max a Vampire or a Sorcerer (hard mode, Sorcerer cannot be Dragonborn for minor breath cheese). Tell the DM that you like min/maxing your character, but you wanted to take a character that wouldn't outshine everyone when min/maxed.
Or min/max a leader. No one minds a min/maxed leader (because everyone feels they're doing really well)
Min/Maxed Lazylord is good for this.
especially if you can convince someone to play your weapon of choice.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 7:07PM
#40
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Another option would be to min-max your face off, but hold back until you really *need* to open up the 55 gallon drum of butt-whoop.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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