-Advantages: Ability to attack two separate targets in 1-turn. Better percentage to trigger effects. -Disadvantages: Lower AC than Sword/Shield (assuming no Two-Weapon Defense), lower DPR than 2-handed style. Limited Weapons (light only).
Ability, yes. Likelihood, no. In melee, most dual-wield people (IRL) will attack often with the primary weapon and use the second weapon for defence against multiple opponents for the most part, and only occasionally target a second opponent with an attack only if the opportunity really presents itself. I think the base mechanics shouldn't take "two separate targets" as a commonality.
In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."
I'm sure someone has already posted this somewhere, but I did some number crunching. In case there is someone out there that isn't sure that two-weapon fighting (as presented in packet 3) is a horrible choice, I present the following math (Assume starting with 18 str, hit on a roll of 6, crit on a 20):
d12 Two-Hander (Fighter)
hit
crit
hit + CS
crit + CS
DPR
DPR w/CS
Level 1
10.5
23.00
13.00
27.00
8.50
10.45
Level 5
10.5
30.00
17.50
42.00
8.85
14.35
Level 6 (2 attacks)
10.5
30.00
17.50
42.00
17.70
24.75
Level 10 (2 attacks)
11.5
38.00
28.00
68.00
19.90
36.69
d6 Two-Weapon (Fighter - Current)
hit
crit
hit + CS
crit + CS
DPR
DPR w/CS
Level 1
3.5
13.00
6.00
17.00
3.99
6.01
Level 5
3.5
20.00
10.50
32.00
4.02
9.71
Level 6 (2 attacks)
3.5
20.00
10.50
32.00
8.04
14.83
Level 10 (2 attacks)
3.5
27.00
20.00
57.00
8.11
24.14
Where I included Combat Superiority, I assumed you spent all your dice, and you spent them as efficiently as possible (on a crit if any of your swings crit, on a hit otherwise). Also interesting to note, using my assumptions a two-hander will connect 75% of the time with one attack. After you pick up your second attack, you will connect at least once roughly 94% of the time. For a dual-wielder it starts at about 81% and jumps to about 96%.
Anyway, in summary, we are all correct. Dual-wielding, as presented is horrible. You do significantly less damage at every level (even less than a sword and board, actually), you lose the extra protection added by a shield, and you only have a marginally better hit rate. After level 6, even that virtually dissappears.
Basically, something needs to change.
Just for comparison here is same fighter using the dual-wielding rules from the 2nd packet:
d6 Two-Weapon (Fighter - 2nd packet)
hit
crit
hit + CS
crit + CS
DPR
DPR w/CS
Level 1
3.75
8.50
6.25
12.50
6.10
8.59
Level 5
3.75
12.00
10.75
24.00
6.45
13.50
Level 6 (2 attacks)
3.75
12.00
10.75
24.00
12.90
20.80
Level 10 (2 attacks)
4.25
16.00
20.75
46.00
15.10
34.04
Here I am assuming that all damage is halved except damage from CS dice. Note that it is still a little behind the two-hander. It stays behind because the extra damage from a crit (6d6 at level 10) is still getting halved, slightly more than offsetting the advantage of critting more often.
That last option seems like the most balanced one we have seen so far, but it still isn't perfect. It is important to note that the numbers for my dual-wielding calculations are going to be a hair low because I assumed 2 x d6 weapons to make the math a little easier. I also think that is more realistic because it will mostly be high-dex warriors that choose to dual-wield. That said, if you were really trying to max damage you could use one d8 weapon and one d6 weapon.
-Advantages: Ability to attack two separate targets in 1-turn. Better percentage to trigger effects. -Disadvantages: Lower AC than Sword/Shield (assuming no Two-Weapon Defense), lower DPR than 2-handed style. Limited Weapons (light only).
Ability, yes. Likelihood, no. In melee, most dual-wield people (IRL) will attack often with the primary weapon and use the second weapon for defence against multiple opponents for the most part, and only occasionally target a second opponent with an attack only if the opportunity really presents itself. I think the base mechanics shouldn't take "two separate targets" as a commonality.
You'd be absolutely correct, if D&D were attempting to simulate realism. But it doesn't and a majority (I'm guessing) are going to assume that wielding two-weapons means two attacks. In previous ediotns, this often meant higher DPR. In 5E, it's not the case and TWF should be comparable to the baseline of Sword and Board. TWF has beneits in situations and drawbacks in others, which I think is a good thing without out feats being taken into consideration.
I'm sure someone has already posted this somewhere, but I did some number crunching.
That last option seems like the most balanced one we have seen so far, but it still isn't perfect. It is important to note that the numbers for my dual-wielding calculations are going to be a hair low because I assumed 2 x d6 weapons to make the math a little easier. I also think that is more realistic because it will mostly be high-dex warriors that choose to dual-wield. That said, if you were really trying to max damage you could use one d8 weapon and one d6 weapon.
We don't actually want 2 weapon to do more damage then 2 handed.
It should be like diffan said. 2-weapon gives you more chances to trigger other things, and reduces overkill (2 dead kobolds > 1 really dead kobold).
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I don't want it to do more damage either... but it seems like it should be comparable to the damage you get by using a 2-hander. That is the trade off for giving up a shield.
In my mind a 2-hander does more damage by hitting harder, 2-weapon does more damage by hitting more often. You could argue that even if it does the same damage (using a 1-hander as the baseline) that would be ok because you can attack two-creatures. I would be ok with that. I'm not ok with it being a universally worse choice, however. Right now it does less damage than a 1-hander... by a pretty wide margin at mid to high levels.
You do have the choice to spread the tiny bit of damage you do between two creatures though...
I don't want it to do more damage either... but it seems like it should be comparable to the damage you get by using a 2-hander. That is the trade off for giving up a shield.
In my mind a 2-hander does more damage by hitting harder, 2-weapon does more damage by hitting more often. You could argue that even if it does the same damage (using a 1-hander as the baseline) that would be ok because you can attack two-creatures. I would be ok with that. I'm not ok with it being a universally worse choice, however. Right now it does less damage than a 1-hander... by a pretty wide margin at mid to high levels.
You do have the choice to spread the tiny bit of damage you do between two creatures though...
I agree that now is bad. I was talking about the packet 2 numbers.
Actually i think you should half the CS dice too. Attacking 2 target's is a pretty big advantage all by itself, and you can always attack 1-handed if the situation warrents. Or heck, item swaping is free, so just carry a 2-hander for when it's needed.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Right now TWF is just terrible altogether, lol. I don't think anyone would take that option other than the "Cool" factor. When the playtest packet #2 came out our gripes were that, for a feat, we became comparable to others without a feat. Other complaints aside (the requirement of light weapons, all damage halved, etc.) I think that TWF should be just slightly behind Two-handed style becuase TWF offers more versatilty. Halving all damage except expertise die (dumb name, BTW. Change it back to Combat Superiority WotC) seems like a decent fit that's just behind 2-handed style.
I have to say that if they do start making options for making TWF better than baseline, they need to do the same for shield users and 2-handed style as well. I'd like to see some maneuvers or feats that allow a shield user to throw his shield, trip people with his shield, and other Captain America stunts (without DM fiat, please) as well as 2-handed giving buffs to Bull Rush or Knocking back people or giving weapons "Brutal*" effect.
*FYI: Brutal was a weapon property that had a number associated with it. Whenever the player rolled for damage and that number came up (or was below the target number) the player could roll again until he rolled something higher. So in DDN, there might be a feat that allows a 2-handed style character to give his weapon Brutal 1 (rerolling all 1's on damage) or something like that.
I ran the numbers with the CS dice halved... it brings it back down to about the level of packet 3. Not really a good option.
It is interesting to note that the damage came out almost exactly the same if you do 'no modifiers' instead of 'half damage.' I think I might like that better. There could then be a feat that allows to you add half of your modifier to damage, or something similar. Anyway, just a thought.
For a baseline it seems to me that either 'attack once with each weapon, if you hit you do half damage (CS dice are not halved in this way)' or 'attack one with each weapon, if you hit you do weapon damage with no modifiers' would be pretty balanced.
I like some of the ideas here, but I think to a degree, everyone has forgotten about a few things. First I am sure that you guys are thinking of primarily fighters and rangers when you talk about making a balanced TWF system. Well you left one out. The monk (or even just a simple unarmed brawler fighter. How would you figure in unarmed TWF that the monk has done in the past (although he was actually doing unarmed multi-weapon fighting, but that's technicalities really) and still make it balanced. Keep in mind that unless they give the monk a similar treatment as they did in 3.X, having scaling unarmed damage (I doubt it) his damage will be naturally low.
Also there are more than 3 fighting styles. Everyone here has assumed full hands for fighting while fighting in melee. Sword and board. Two-handed great-weapons. Two Weapon Fighting. What about what I refer to as Dueling? That is a single weapon in one hand and nothing in the off hand. Or what I refer to as Swashbuckling? That is a single weapon with a light ranged weapon (throwing dagger, hand crossbow, powder pistol etc) in the off hand? I think all of these should be available as possible 'fighting styles' that are balanced as equal options.
I dont mind two-weapon fighting being generic to all classes, but I do not like the disadvantage portion (too many dice rolls). It would be better to keep it at half damage for all classes. The benefit for the rogue and fighter is the ability to use CS dice on either attack.
Or they could allow martial classes to do full damage on the first attack, but limit the second attack damage to the current CS dice value or weapon, whichever is lowest. The monk could be distinguished by raising the CS value for unarmed attacks.
