..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Haggling is tricky, because there's absolutely no reason for a fictional merchant, with fictional needs, and fictional money to either argue with or give in to a player character.
There's no reason for a fictional dragon with fictional motivations and fictional evilness to either protect or destroy a fictional town either.
At the same time, what's it to the player character if the merchant takes a bath on the deal? Even if he's not lying about his starving children, they're still fictional, whereas the +1 from the item the player is after is not. And anyway, the PCs might be trying to stop some existential threat against the whole continent. Why are they paying for anything? (Answer, they're not, the acquisition of items is not as literal as actually handing gp to a merchant in a magic item shop. This isn't a video game.)
It can be entirely literal in the context of the game setting.
Roll a die or just decide which side is going to get their way (one, both, or neither) and play a short scene. Whee. Moving on.
Speaking of, this long ago stopped being about What's a Player to Do.
You seem to really hate haggling...or shopping in general...I think many DMs find it to be a great opportunity for characters to express themselves and to meet & interact with NPCs while also potentially picking up all sorts of interesting info.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
Then it sounds as though haggling truly is a waste of their time, unless it's about something other than the money.
Generally, if it is about saving themselves fictional money, then yes it is a waste of time, and they should accept the median values offered in the books.
Alot seems to bore you. You should talk to your doctor about this, depresion is no laughing matter -winks-
There are reasons, gainign a particular item might be a plot point, or the players might enjoy social interaction as a chalenge. Playing an urban game in a city where they might start enterprizing businesses etc.
The OP's situation didn't seem to have anything to do with any plan for making haggling work. They got slapped with an extra fee even before they rolled.
That might be appropriate if:
A: They are trying to haggle to get something that is beyond their level range (ie a 5th level player trying to buy a +4 Keen, Shocking Burst greatsword of wishing) and this is the DM's way of ending the attempt.
B: The PC Said or did something to offend the merchant. Such as bidding well below the item's cost to create (ie trying to buy a +2 Greatsword, 2345 gp price, for 500gp) or insulting the owner (such as saying, "you Dwarfs always trying to overcharge us humans for your so-called craftmenship, How do I know this magic sword is even masterworked?")
We've overlooked the other example from the OP: haggling down the price.
Ignoring for now what a waste of time haggling scenes generally are
Needless judgement call.
, what's worth considering is that the player "roleplayed with the merchant so horribly" that far from gaining circumstance bonuses or penalties, the player didn't even get to roll at all, yet still incurred a penalty in the form of a higher cost for the item in question.
This was with a high Charisma character.
We don't know what the DM expected from the character. It's possible that the OP did something that any one of us would be hard pressed to take in an interesting direction, even accounting for how uninteresting haggling already is. But what I've seen much more of is DMs who simply have no intention of budging on a particular point, no matter what the player does, and then penalizes the character for even trying, to ensure that they won't try again.
This is the hoop. Players usually can't see the hoops or even know they're there, so they try this roleplaying thing they've heard of and get a cookie or a slap. If they get a slap, they're not likely to try it again, and will do everything they can not to make any choices, so as not to make any the DM doesn't want them to make.
Some players come into a game pre-slapped, but slapped over the wrong things, so the DM has to get them to come out of their shell in order to slap them over the right things.
I would bet that the OP is a great roleplayer, and it's to their credit that they want to keep trying to appease this DM despite what has happened so far. They clearly want to roleplay, but the DM doesn't seem to want to let them. All the player can do is ask the DM where the hoops are, and their extents, and stick to those.
You've been abused by DMs in the past, haven't you? Here this might help...
And as for haggling scenes (and other similar scenes)...what scene told us more about Luke Skywalker, him shooting Tie Fighters with Han Solo or him arguing with Uncle Owen about going to Toshi station?
I think the TIE Fighter scene told us just how much of a bloodthirsty son of a bitch he really was. I mean, when you get right down to it, he was celebrating the death of a person. There's a part of him that really enjoys his killing.
@centauri, I don't forsee a lot of future in the party's haggling. Like anything else, hitting the same notes over and over gets dull.
As for an attempt to get this back in line with the purpose of this forum, I think that if players want to spend time roleplaying haggling a DM should oblige those players. Since I DM a group of mostly new players I let them make rolls when they want to but ask leading questions about the kinds of things they want those rolls to represent. I think that successful roleplaying for someone who doesn't feel comfortable with it should be attempted incrementally. You're not going to win an oscar for your dnd game, but that doesn't mean that you won't feel foolish when you're playing pretend with a group of adults, even if that's the whole purpose for showing up at game day. A character will develop as the game does, and it's fine to struggle along the way as you find out who that character is. I've found that giving a character a flaw or putting your character in a compromising situation is a great way to develop those roleplaying skills because you start to see your character as a person with flaws and ideas of his or her own outside the cookie-cutter slash-kill-profit mode.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I think the TIE Fighter scene told us just how much of a bloodthirsty son of a bitch he really was. I mean, when you get right down to it, he was celebrating the death of a person. There's a part of him that really enjoys his killing.
Haha Death Star go boom M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M--M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-ulti-kill!
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
Then it sounds as though haggling truly is a waste of their time, unless it's about something other than the money.
Generally, if it is about saving themselves fictional money, then yes it is a waste of time, and they should accept the median values offered in the books.
Or, the DM should give them the item at the price they're interested in, and make up for it (if need be) later. Meanwhile, they important business of whatever the adventure is can be attended to, rather than sidelined.
There are reasons, gainign a particular item might be a plot point, or the players might enjoy social interaction as a chalenge. Playing an urban game in a city where they might start enterprizing businesses etc.
Fine, as long as it's not about money, but about the scene.
The OP's situation didn't seem to have anything to do with any plan for making haggling work. They got slapped with an extra fee even before they rolled.
That might be appropriate if:
A: They are trying to haggle to get something that is beyond their level range (ie a 5th level player trying to buy a +4 Keen, Shocking Burst greatsword of wishing) and this is the DM's way of ending the attempt.
That's not a good or appropriate way of ending it. A good way would have been not to make the item available in the first place. 4th Edition deals with this by not allowing characters to buy items above their level. Failing that, a better way would be to talk to the player and be straight with them that they can't obtain the item through haggling, and then tell them what they could do to obtain it.
B: The PC Said or did something to offend the merchant. Such as bidding well below the item's cost to create (ie trying to buy a +2 Greatsword, 2345 gp price, for 500gp) or insulting the owner (such as saying, "you Dwarfs always trying to overcharge us humans for your so-called craftmenship, How do I know this magic sword is even masterworked?")
That's also not necessarily appropriate. Just because the DM imagines those approaches would make bargaining impossible doesn't mean they would. Even in the real world, it can be appropriate to offer an insultingly low price, to begin with, and certainly in fantasy or sci-fi cultures a certain amount of healthy insult might be considered part of a good haggle.
The aggravating insipidness of haggling aside, this is a prime example of a DM setting up hoops for the player. The player has to know what the DM considers the "proper" way to roleplay a haggle, or might as well not bother. The player could be roleplaying to the hilt, and just get shut down cold. An attempt at roleplaying should not by itself open every door, purse, or bodice, but it at least deserves interesting failure rather than a complete stonewall.
As for an attempt to get this back in line with the purpose of this forum, I think that if players want to spend time roleplaying haggling a DM should oblige those players.
I agree. In the case of the original post, the DM didn't seem to have any interest in obliging the player, choosing instead to stonewall him, and punish him.
Since I DM a group of mostly new players I let them make rolls when they want to but ask leading questions about the kinds of things they want those rolls to represent.
I think that successful roleplaying for someone who doesn't feel comfortable with it should be attempted incrementally. You're not going to win an oscar for your dnd game, but that doesn't mean that you won't feel foolish when you're playing pretend with a group of adults, even if that's the whole purpose for showing up at game day.
And this is the key reason why anyone's attempt at roleplaying should be rewarded with an interesting outcome, be it failure or success. A DM should want a player to feel like their attempt at roleplaying was cool, even if it didn't succeed. Players, if you're in a game in which the DM punishes roleplaying that isn't up to his or her standard, avoid that game. You need it like you need pernicious anemia.
A character will develop as the game does, and it's fine to struggle along the way as you find out who that character is. I've found that giving a character a flaw or putting your character in a compromising situation is a great way to develop those roleplaying skills because you start to see your character as a person with flaws and ideas of his or her own outside the cookie-cutter slash-kill-profit mode.
I recommend these approaches, but the standard approach to D&D is antithetical to them, because failure tends to be extremely boring, and flaws or compromising situations can get characters killed, which tends to be extremely boring, especially when it's intended as a disincentive.
Players, talk to your DMs about ways to have your character fail in interesting ways, so that you can explore the characters imperfections and irrationalities.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
Then it sounds as though haggling truly is a waste of their time, unless it's about something other than the money.
Generally, if it is about saving themselves fictional money, then yes it is a waste of time, and they should accept the median values offered in the books.
Or, the DM should give them the item at the price they're interested in, and make up for it (if need be) later. Meanwhile, they important business of whatever the adventure is can be attended to, rather than sidelined.
There are reasons, gainign a particular item might be a plot point, or the players might enjoy social interaction as a chalenge. Playing an urban game in a city where they might start enterprizing businesses etc.
Fine, as long as it's not about money, but about the scene.
The OP's situation didn't seem to have anything to do with any plan for making haggling work. They got slapped with an extra fee even before they rolled.
That might be appropriate if:
A: They are trying to haggle to get something that is beyond their level range (ie a 5th level player trying to buy a +4 Keen, Shocking Burst greatsword of wishing) and this is the DM's way of ending the attempt.
That's not a good or appropriate way of ending it. A good way would have been not to make the item available in the first place. 4th Edition deals with this by not allowing characters to buy items above their level. Failing that, a better way would be to talk to the player and be straight with them that they can't obtain the item through haggling, and then tell them what they could do to obtain it.
B: The PC Said or did something to offend the merchant. Such as bidding well below the item's cost to create (ie trying to buy a +2 Greatsword, 2345 gp price, for 500gp) or insulting the owner (such as saying, "you Dwarfs always trying to overcharge us humans for your so-called craftmenship, How do I know this magic sword is even masterworked?")
That's also not necessarily appropriate. Just because the DM imagines those approaches would make bargaining impossible doesn't mean they would. Even in the real world, it can be appropriate to offer an insultingly low price, to begin with, and certainly in fantasy or sci-fi cultures a certain amount of healthy insult might be considered part of a good haggle.
The aggravating insipidness of haggling aside, this is a prime example of a DM setting up hoops for the player. The player has to know what the DM considers the "proper" way to roleplay a haggle, or might as well not bother. The player could be roleplaying to the hilt, and just get shut down cold. An attempt at roleplaying should not by itself open every door, purse, or bodice, but it at least deserves interesting failure rather than a complete stonewall.
As for an attempt to get this back in line with the purpose of this forum, I think that if players want to spend time roleplaying haggling a DM should oblige those players.
I agree. In the case of the original post, the DM didn't seem to have any interest in obliging the player, choosing instead to stonewall him, and punish him.
Since I DM a group of mostly new players I let them make rolls when they want to but ask leading questions about the kinds of things they want those rolls to represent.
I think that successful roleplaying for someone who doesn't feel comfortable with it should be attempted incrementally. You're not going to win an oscar for your dnd game, but that doesn't mean that you won't feel foolish when you're playing pretend with a group of adults, even if that's the whole purpose for showing up at game day.
And this is the key reason why anyone's attempt at roleplaying should be rewarded with an interesting outcome, be it failure or success. A DM should want a player to feel like their attempt at roleplaying was cool, even if it didn't succeed. Players, if you're in a game in which the DM punishes roleplaying that isn't up to his or her standard, avoid that game. You need it like you need pernicious anemia.
A character will develop as the game does, and it's fine to struggle along the way as you find out who that character is. I've found that giving a character a flaw or putting your character in a compromising situation is a great way to develop those roleplaying skills because you start to see your character as a person with flaws and ideas of his or her own outside the cookie-cutter slash-kill-profit mode.
I recommend these approaches, but the standard approach to D&D is antithetical to them, because failure tends to be extremely boring, and flaws or compromising situations can get characters killed, which tends to be extremely boring, especially when it's intended as a disincentive.
Players, talk to your DMs about ways to have your character fail in interesting ways, so that you can explore the characters imperfections and irrationalities.
Seriously, what did a DM do to you in the past? A lot of the stuff in this post points to some SERIOUS abuse by a DM
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I think the TIE Fighter scene told us just how much of a bloodthirsty son of a bitch he really was. I mean, when you get right down to it, he was celebrating the death of a person. There's a part of him that really enjoys his killing.
Haha Death Star go boom M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M--M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-ulti-kill!
Willing to kill a truckload of people to save the people he cares about....not unlike his dad.
Edit: Hehe, Ulti...Yeah, that would be a good ulti for a Jedi fighter pilot, destroy battle-station.
Centauri. Most would find haggling over prices boring, especially as it not really going to save them anything significant in the long run. But some groups do find it interesting. Sorry but who crowned you King of what's cool in the playground?
Secondly, this ussually occurs when the players have finally been given the opportunity at the end of a particualr stretch of play, to return to town, sell their loot, level up characters, and buy new gear. They are all pouring through the books and there are ussually discussions on "what feats do I need to make a spiked chain work?" and "should we pool our resources to buy a Wand of Break Enchantment?" and abit of haggling and roleplaying isn't going to make a difference to your emo bordom.
As for the rest of your post "blah blah blah, DM hoops! Blah blah blah I'm Bored, Blah blah blah"
So what do you suggest? That the NPCs should just stand there and "take it like the b&*^hes they are?" That if a PC decides to stab the king to death in his throne room, theat the loyal guards standing by go "well it's not my business" That every NPC be lifeless drones? And Oh I'm sorry, putting the treasure at the end of the dungeon and expecting the PCs to jump through all the DM's hoops by going through all the encounters and traps to get at it. Want to get rid of DM hoops? Put the PCs floating in space, alone and immortal, with nothing to do, PCs "hey there is nothing to do." DM "yay! You win! 5,000,000,000,000 XP each, you all made it to Epic, yay!", PCs "......"
