Yagami, while I will admit that I did misinterpret what was being said by MrCustomer in particular as saying there was an actual mechanical negative being given to a player who was using their mechanical skills as opposed to acting it out, his language did strongly imply to my interpretation that he was the sort of DM who effectively gave a free pass to a player who "roleplayed."
He mentions (post #27) about a Barbarian coming into the tavern and going into outright RP versus the Rogue who goes out picking pockets and then rolls Gather Info before going back to doing Rogueish things, with no interactions. The way that this reads to me is that he wouldn't even ask for a roll from the Barbarian, because he's conforming to his standard of "roleplaying," while not even considering that the Rogue potentially could be gathering information
To answer this, there are ussually, especially if the DM lets the players write the game, are more then one solution to anything. Gather Information is only one solution out of many for getting the information. Talk to the right person and ask the right questions is another solution. Researching in the city records with a Knowledge skill might be another solution.
To this end the barbarian may well have chosen one of the possible solutions. he first engaged to make the enhabitants more friendly to him, and then to get to know people, and then to ask the right questions. To this end he has succeeded (in the even of happening upong the right people) or at the very least earned a modifier to his rolls. Again there are other ways to have solved this and all may be more or less or equally valid approaches, some the DM may have thought of ahead of time and some that may not have occured to him, but that he should roll with.
The Rogue's approach? Yes rolling Gather Information is a perfectly valid solution. However it tyically takes 1d4+1 hours time to do, (2 hours minimum basically) and the Rogue has spent the time focused on other activities, no doubt he may succeed in breaking intot the inn's vault, or pickpocketing some pocket change and jewelry. But he won't have gotten much success in Gathering Information if he isn't even trying. Yes he could spend some of the time actually gathering information, but his success/failure is going to reflect the amount of time and effort he actually spent focused on the task.
So increasing the DC for not spending the entire time needed, ie rushing the task, is called for. This would be the same as if using any other skill while rushing, after all if he is literally trying to do 2 hour's work in 15 minutes, it's going to be more difficult.
My point was for people new to roleplaying who need a focus, a "what to do?" to start them, working to gain modifiers for the skill, rather then just tossing the dice, is a good way to break out of the shell, it gives them a goal oreinted purpose that will help get into character. The Rogue could be using the same method while pickpocketing.
There is nothing dickish in a world that is reactive in a realistic manner either. Having the world behave realistically and reactively is one of the best way to make the game immersive.
If you want to determine what happens in a game be a player or write a book.
This is 100% true. Creative fiction writing and running a tabletop RPG are two entirely different beasts. There are skills from both that can overlap and serve you well in either field, but they are not the same thing. Now, my English instructor may not be the greatest master of literature in the world, but he knows his stuff, and he runs tabletop RPGs pretty regularly, one of them of his own design that he has been iterating for a long time, and he realized all this a long time ago. When I talked with him about this, all he did was confirm what I thought.
Here are some excerpts from the 3.5 DMG, from page 44 and 45, respectively.
"Choices: A good adventure has at least a few points where the players need to make important decisions. What they decide should have significant impact on what happens next. A choice can be as simple as the players deciding not to go down the corridor to the left (where the pyrohydra waits for them) and instead going to the right (toward the magic fountain), or as complex as the PCs deciding not to help the queen against the grand vizier (so that she ends up being assassinated and the vizier’s puppet gains the throne). Difficult Choices: When a choice has a significant consequence, it should sometimes be a difficult one to make. Should the PCs help the church of Heironeous wage war on the goblins, even though the conflict will almost certainly keep them from reaching the Fortress of Nast before the evil duke summons the slaadi assassins? Should the PCs trust the words of a dragon, or ignore her warning?"
"Leading the PCs by the Nose: A bad event-based adventure is marked by mandates restricting PC actions or is based on events that occur no matter what the PCs do. For example, a plot that hinges on the PCs finding a mysterious heirloom, only to have it stolen by NPCs, is dangerous—if the players invent a good way to protect the heirloom, they won’t like having it stolen anyway just because that’s what you had planned beforehand. The players end up feeling powerless and frustrated. No matter what, all adventures should depend upon player choices, and players should feel as though what they choose to do matters. The results should affect the campaign setting (albeit perhaps in minor ways), and they should have consequences (good or bad) for the PCs."
These are both taken from the good/bad structure section.
I wrote this huge thing out, then tapped a button by mistake. It's all gone, so you get this instead.
Out of all the descriptions there was one that the DM said looked sad, I immediately thought "That's her." I sat next to her and ordered a drink. I then attempted to flirt with her to get information, but I ended up giving her the information I had. Unfortunately it was her, and now because I failed at roleplaying well she knew that we were looking for her.
This was not bad roleplay. This was awesome roleplay. Take my advice. You just made a memorable event that people will not forget so easily.
I saw the second example but it really sounds like is that you are not getting the words right. Rollplay is playing by rolling the dice. It's unimaginitive, and gets you nowhere. You played to have fun, remember? Roleplay is where you act as the character would. Doing badly does not make it any less. In fact, things are much more eventfull that way.
Remember Rogue_Elen if the DM has any plans, goals, wishes or desires that means he automatically loses the game of DMing. No DM should ever make any difference to their game beyond facilitating anything and everything for their players. There can be no fun in any game that doesn't revolved exclusively around the mind of the players.
If you want to determine what happens in a game be a player or write a book.
If the DM didn't determine what happens in a game the PCs would be sitting in a tavern doing nothing for a very, very long time.
The DM's job should be to create an immersive, interactive and organic world in which the players incert themselves into. A world that behaves and reacts realistically, one in which the NPCs are every bit as alive as their own characters is one that they can immerse themselves into. Good or bad, the world should react and behave accordingly.
Remember Rogue_Elen if the DM has any plans, goals, wishes or desires that means he automatically loses the game of DMing. No DM should ever make any difference to their game beyond facilitating anything and everything for their players. There can be no fun in any game that doesn't revolved exclusively around the mind of the players.
If you want to determine what happens in a game be a player or write a book.
If the DM didn't determine what happens in a game the PCs would be sitting in a tavern doing nothing for a very, very long time.
The DM's job should be to create an immersive, interactive and organic world in which the players incert themselves into. A world that behaves and reacts realistically, one in which the NPCs are every bit as alive as their own characters is one that they can immerse themselves into. Good or bad, the world should react and behave accordingly.
Agreed. And in such a world, just like in real life, a DM will have little ot no ability to determine what will happen. The onus is on the players, therefore the DM has little to no ability to determine, for himself, what happens.
With a trap, for instance, you cannot determine whether the players encounter it...you cannot determine whether it harms a player...you cannot determine whether they by-pass it or not...etc etc. Only the players and the rules can determine that. The DM should always be as far removed from determination as possible.
In truth, I'm sure we agree, I think we may be looking past one another though. Lemme know if you need any more clarification...it's a weird concept.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
With a trap, for instance, you cannot determine whether the players encounter it...
Cept for, as a DM, you actually do determine some/many/all of what the characters encounter and whether they encounter it.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
With a trap, for instance, you cannot determine whether the players encounter it...
Cept for, as a DM, you actually do determine some/many/all of what the characters encounter and whether they encounter it.
Incorrect. The players may choose to avoid the place its in...they may never go to that place...or they may stop short of it.
Additionally, the trap may be generated randomly in which case you did not determine it, it is as much a surprise for you as the players.
So no, there is never a time when you determine whether they encounter it or not. They simply do or they don't...and the onus is on the players.
I think you are misconstruing what I mean by "determine"...you do not decide that they do something. Things need to be cut & dry...either something DOES happen or it doesn't. The DM does not "determine" that...the rules, the players or logic do. The DM should need to determine very little on the part of the game world. The DM DOES have to determine certain things on behalf of the players, but that is aiding them because there are many situations PCs can come up with that the game is not necessarily made to arbitrate. This is when the DM steps in...however, even then the PCs have the ability to determine whether or not they still undertake the action and then they or the dice decide what happens.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
There is nothing dickish in a world that is reactive in a realistic manner either. Having the world behave realistically and reactively is one of the best way to make the game immersive.
At some point (and that point is not very far along) the game must diverge from apparent "realism," and veer down a path of (at least) "unlikely but plausible" to keep things interesting. Consequences for character actions don't always need to be strictly positive, but there's no excuse for making them boring.
(And I bet most DMs who make the whole town angry and closed off to a party don't see it as boring. They probably don't see prison or death as boring. Think of all the movies in which the character is ostracized or killed or imprisoned, and the scenario turns out to be very interesting. So, shouldn't a DM and party let these sorts of scenarios arise and see what interesting things come of them? It really depends on the kind of time they have. It should be acknowledged though that certain scenarios, when played "realistically," are likely to limit interesting development and play for arbitrarily long swaths of game time, partly due to the fact that the DM is then obliged to keep the PCs in that scenario in order to maintain realism. A prison the PCs can just smash their way out of, or a town that quickly changes its mind about a miscreant isn't that realistic, after all, right? If the DM is resorting to "realism" as an excuse for punishing certain players, there's even more incentive for the DM to keep things boring.
(What's a player to do? Know what you might be getting into if your DM touts "realism" and "immersion." They're double-edged swords.)
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
There is nothing dickish in a world that is reactive in a realistic manner either. Having the world behave realistically and reactively is one of the best way to make the game immersive.
At some point (and that point is not very far along) the game must diverge from apparent "realism," and veer down a path of (at least) "unlikely but plausible" to keep things interesting. Consequences for character actions don't always need to be strictly positive, but there's no excuse for making them boring.
(And I bet most DMs who make the whole town angry and closed off to a party don't see it as boring. They probably don't see prison or death as boring. Think of all the movies in which the character is ostracized or killed or imprisoned, and the scenario turns out to be very interesting. So, shouldn't a DM and party let these sorts of scenarios arise and see what interesting things come of them? It really depends on the kind of time they have. It should be acknowledged though that certain scenarios, when played "realistically," are likely to limit interesting development and play for arbitrarily long swaths of game time, partly due to the fact that the DM is then obliged to keep the PCs in that scenario in order to maintain realism. A prison the PCs can just smash their way out of, or a town that quickly changes its mind about a miscreant isn't that realistic, after all, right? If the DM is resorting to "realism" as an excuse for punishing certain players, there's even more incentive for the DM to keep things boring.
(What's a player to do? Know what you might be getting into if your DM touts "realism" and "immersion." They're double-edged swords.)
This is why logic "sometimes" doesn't work because there is no line to draw. "What is fun" means absolutely nothing so it is impossible to fully determine. Imprisonment doesn't mean an end to the character...though it can. A player is free to give up on a character if they so choose and leave them to their fate. This is also a big reason my players have satellite characters like henchman and friends & allies (from their 3x3) so that they can pick up that person and shift focus to that character as their PC if they so wish.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
With a trap, for instance, you cannot determine whether the players encounter it...
Cept for, as a DM, you actually do determine some/many/all of what the characters encounter and whether they encounter it.
Incorrect. The players may choose to avoid the place its in...they may never go to that place...or they may stop short of it.
Additionally, the trap may be generated randomly in which case you did not determine it, it is as much a surprise for you as the players.
So no, there is never a time when you determine whether they encounter it or not. They simply do or they don't...and the onus is on the players.
I think you are misconstruing what I mean by "determine"...you do not decide that they do something. Things need to be cut & dry...either something DOES happen or it doesn't. The DM does not "determine" that...the rules, the players or logic do. The DM should need to determine very little on the part of the game world. The DM DOES have to determine certain things on behalf of the players, but that is aiding them because there are many situations PCs can come up with that the game is not necessarily made to arbitrate. This is when the DM steps in...however, even then the PCs have the ability to determine whether or not they still undertake the action and then they or the dice decide what happens.
You can say it is incorrect and try to muddle it up as much as you want. But it is the DM's role to determine some things for the players. Yes they might not go way A and get to thing B, but most DMs arent running exclusively with random generators (at least in my experience). If they are improvising they are doing it on the fly, using their imagination and suggestion from the players to build the world. But they are still putting things in front of the players. Unless you play a game where everything is either player built or randomly created that is how it has to be. Now I'm not saying you can't do it that way. I am saying that professing that as the only way to do things is absurd. Even if you are building things randomly you probably still picked the generator to draw things from, the list of random names to draw from etc etc.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
