Agreed, but when this is a problem, it is generally a problem because a player uses his character as an excuse to act like a jerk.
I'm not sure of this anymore. I think a lot of times the player is actually doing what they think they're supposed to be doing, such as a thief stealing, or a paladin hitting a thief for stealing, or a barbarian making insulting comments in polite company. Then they get told no, and they think the person telling them no is being a jerk and then there's a arms race of jerkiness.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
Agreed, but when this is a problem, it is generally a problem because a player uses his character as an excuse to act like a jerk.
I'm not sure of this anymore. I think a lot of times the player is actually doing what they think they're supposed to be doing, such as a thief stealing, or a paladin hitting a thief for stealing, or a barbarian making insulting comments in polite company. Then they get told no, and they think the person telling them no is being a jerk and then there's a arms race of jerkiness.
For players that use their character as an excuse to act like a jerk (I'm a rogue so I steal the group's treasure, I'm a Paladin so I kill the rogue, I'm CN so I murder everyone in their sleep at the flip of a coin) it comes down to a DM enforcing consequences.
Consequences quickly settles such behaviour and cause players to look for more roleplayable choices and actions, and it's easy to do right away at low levels. If you follow this by placing them in some social situations where they need to behave positively while in character then you can encourage more roleplaying.
The Thief acting this way ends up arrested or "punished" by the local thieves guild. The rude barbarian ends up having the group tossed into the street instead of rewarded for their heroics, or ends up being beaten up in a barfight, tossed outside into the street at night, where he is robbed by some thugs that take advantage of him being already beaten up. The Paladin ends up being targeted by the local thieves guilds, criminal element for stirring up trouble, and possibly arrested for his "vigilanty" justice.
And thieves guilds don't need to be stabby to target anyone, it can be as simple as telling all the merchants that pay them protection money to not deal with them. When the magic sword they want is on the wall behind the counter and the smith is saying, "sorry we don't carry those here" and "no that's for display only, sorry, perhaps you should try in " then you have the player's attention.
For players that use their character as an excuse to act like a jerk (I'm a rogue so I steal the group's treasure, I'm a Paladin so I kill the rogue, I'm CN so I murder everyone in their sleep at the flip of a coin) it comes down to a DM enforcing consequences.
Consequences quickly settles such behaviour and cause players to look for more roleplayable choices and actions, and it's easy to do right away at low levels. If you follow this by placing them in some social situations where they need to behave positively while in character then you can encourage more roleplaying.
The Thief acting this way ends up arrested or "punished" by the local thieves guild. The rude barbarian ends up having the group tossed into the street instead of rewarded for their heroics, or ends up being beaten up in a barfight, tossed outside into the street at night, where he is robbed by some thugs that take advantage of him being already beaten up. The Paladin ends up being targeted by the local thieves guilds, criminal element for stirring up trouble, and possibly arrested for his "vigilanty" justice.
And thieves guilds don't need to be stabby to target anyone, it can be as simple as telling all the merchants that pay them protection money to not deal with them. When the magic sword they want is on the wall behind the counter and the smith is saying, "sorry we don't carry those here" and "no that's for display only, sorry, perhaps you should try in " then you have the player's attention.
And horrifically enough there are people that will bemoan the DM doing that by claiming they are infringing on the players desire to play a character a certain way.
I totally agree with you, however.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My advice on how to be a good role-player for the general gamer:
Don't try to make epic speeches or use twenty dollar words every time your character talks.
Have a general idea of your character's personality and story. Let it direct what he/she does or says. But remember most of what your character does won't have some important meaning or purpose relating to his/her backstory.
Use a manner of speaking that is most comfortable for you as a player.
Describe your character's actions as much as what he/she says.
Don't force the story. It'll happen naturally. Focus on just playing a character in a scene rather then trying to use the character as a vehicle for progressing some overall story (that will happen naturally, and sometimes with prodding from the DM when appropriate).
Remember to let your character do the wrong thing if it fits the character. In combat, this may mean not doing the best, most strategic things. However, it does make combat more fun, since it becomes more focused on a story-scene and role-playing rather than a strategy game.
Consequences quickly settles such behaviour and cause players to look for more roleplayable choices and actions, and it's easy to do right away at low levels. If you follow this by placing them in some social situations where they need to behave positively while in character then you can encourage more roleplaying.
I have rarely seen this work to bring out more roleplaying. What I have seen bring out more roleplaying is not handing out punishing consequences for character behavior, but rather accomodating, as much as possible, how players want to play their characters. This means letting go of one's stories and plans, much of the time, but it can be worth it for the trust it can earn a DM.
Oops, that advice is more for a DM. Forgot which forum I was in.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
Centauri, perhaps I used poor language, I said consequences, those can be either good or bad. The point is if the world reacts to their actions, then they will be more likely to interact with the world.
Anti-social behaviour discourages roleplaying because of the mess it creates. It is nearly impossible to roleplay in a tavern, as an example, if it becomes a combat scene in a bar fight.
It is the DM's job not to just accomodate the players, but to also be a neutral judge.
If the character belly flopped off cliffs all the time, would you A: roll fall damage each time or B: have a passing Giant Eagle save his life at the last second and similair occurances to "accomodate" the character?
Option A is how a neutral, unbiased judge would handle it, and would quickly stop the Wiley Coyote cartoonish behaviour, option B: would quickly degenerate the game into a Loonies Toons episode.
Good consequences would be that (not starting a fight) interacting with someone will make them more favourable to the party and help out those Bluff/Diplomacy/gather information checks. bad consequences occur when the Rogue tries to pick that same NPC's pockets while the barbarian pushed him off the bar stool so he can have a seat to interogate the bartender and a barfight quickly ensues.
This is really advice for the DM though.
As a Player, keeping in mind that there are consequences for your actions will help you roleplay. Having a Dark, complex backstory won't help you roleplay, in fact it might make it harder to roleplay. Trying to manipulate the desired outcome as a consequence of your actions will help more then a prepared speach.
Another hard part of roleplaying is what to talk about. Because what does one imaginary character say to another imaginary character? The easiest is to talk about things that have happened in game
The barbarian who comes in, sits at the bar and orders a pint, saying he really needs a drink after all he's been through and recounts his last adventure and how annoying that stick in the mud paladin was and now we are in town looking for information on.... can end up finding more information then the Rogue who spends the night getting caught picking pockets and had just tossed the dice, "I roll gather information and try to slip behind the counter when the bartender is busy talking to the barbarian"
The barbarian player doesn't have to be "good" at roleplaying, and in need of something to say he simply highlights a few events of the last adventure. As a consequence the town might view the party as local heros, he makes those listening more favourable to them and as a consequence gets an easy gather information (or doesn't even need to roll it at all)
When going to buy new weapons/armor, talking to the blacksmith about how your current sword's lack of balance and poor grip has caused you to drop it in the middle of several fights (because you rolled alot of natural "1"s on the last few adventures with it) Instead of just buying something like Mithril armor, go to the armorsmith and talk about how heavy and akward your armor is, and ask what can be done to get lighter, less hindering armor.
That sounds rather simplistic at first, always talking about the obvious, but as you do this you will find yourself drawn into the character and will start to spread out and talk about other things as well. This gives a starting point.
Some people it helps to have a detailed, complex past to create a character that they know how they will roleplay in advance. For some that aren't too sure, this complex, detailed past will be akward to actually use. So it is often best to start out as simple and bareboned as possible, and then develop the character. It starts with a mundane conversation on the merits of Lightening bolt over Fireball while buying a scroll, and then develops with use to more emersive interactions.
Centauri, perhaps I used poor language, I said consequences, those can be either good or bad. The point is if the world reacts to their actions, then they will be more likely to interact with the world.
Depends how it reacts to them. If it shuts them down, and they're left feeling punished or shamed, then they will clam back up.
Anti-social behaviour discourages roleplaying because of the mess it creates. It is nearly impossible to roleplay in a tavern, as an example, if it becomes a combat scene in a bar fight.
It might be impossible to talk but it's not impossible to roleplay.
Anti-social behavior does not create messes. DMs create messes.
It is the DM's job not to just accomodate the players, but to also be a neutral judge.
If the character belly flopped off cliffs all the time, would you A: roll fall damage each time or B: have a passing Giant Eagle save his life at the last second and similair occurances to "accomodate" the character?
What cliff? Oh, the cliff the DM decided to put there, because they're not impartial, but thought having a cliff around would be interesting and fun? Well, if it's not fun, I imagine that DM won't put cliffs around in the future.
It's not necessary to have a DM for the impartial, neutral aspects of the game. Anyone could roll that falling damage.
Good consequences would be that (not starting a fight) interacting with someone will make them more favourable to the party and help out those Bluff/Diplomacy/gather information checks.
bad consequences occur when the Rogue tries to pick that same NPC's pockets while the barbarian pushed him off the bar stool so he can have a seat to interogate the bartender and a barfight quickly ensues.
As a Player, keeping in mind that there are consequences for your actions will help you roleplay. Having a Dark, complex backstory won't help you roleplay, in fact it might make it harder to roleplay.
The barbarian who comes in, sits at the bar and orders a pint, saying he really needs a drink after all he's been through and recounts his last adventure and how annoying that stick in the mud paladin was and now we are in town looking for information on.... can end up finding more information then the Rogue who spends the night getting caught picking pockets and had just tossed the dice, "I roll gather information and try to slip behind the counter when the bartender is busy talking to the barbarian"
Sounds like the barbarian is being rewarded with actual gameplay by jumping through the DM's preferred hoops, and the rogue is getting stonewalled for not doing so, even though he, too, is roleplaying: roleplaying a thief.
The barbarian player doesn't have to be "good" at roleplaying, and in need of something to say he simply highlights a few events of the last adventure.
Which presumably everyone was present for, and doesn't need a recap on.
As a consequence the town might view the party as local heros, he makes those listening more favourable to them and as a consequence gets an easy gather information (or doesn't even need to roll it at all)
When going to buy new weapons/armor, talking to the blacksmith about how your current sword's lack of balance and poor grip has caused you to drop it in the middle of several fights (because you rolled alot of natural "1"s on the last few adventures with it)
Some people it helps to have a detailed, complex past to create a character that they know how they will roleplay in advance. For some that aren't too sure, this complex, detailed past will be akward to actually use. So it is often best to start out as simple and bareboned as possible, and then develop the character. It starts with a mundane conversation on the merits of Lightening bolt over Fireball while buying a scroll, and then develops with use to more emersive interactions.
And, with any luck, eventually you'll actually get to adventure.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
What cliff? Oh, the cliff the DM decided to put there, because they're not impartial, but thought having a cliff around would be interesting and fun? Well, if it's not fun, I imagine that DM won't put cliffs around in the future.
LMFAO Sorry, man but that is utterly ridiculous. If a player decides to jump off a cliff it is the DMs fault for putting a cliff there.
Really? Really? REALLY?
This is why so many people have bad players. Heck, this is why so many people in the world have bad children. Oh no it's not your fault something bad happened to you...it's someone elses fault.
Bullocks.
And, with any luck, eventually you'll actually get to adventure.
When all someone is is a statblock used for "adventure" (IE combat) there is no roleplaying to be had.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
Centauri, I hope you aren't arguing for the sake of arguing. Are you saying that games shouldn't have DM's?
The World reacting to the PC's actions is how a game becomes emmersive and the players feel like they are a part of that world. When you make them a part of that world and they see how their interactions with it shapes that world.
When their actions, positive or negative, don't change anything, then they aren't part of that world, they are sitting on the edge looking in, their actions are meaningless to that world.
Sounds like the barbarian is being rewarded with actual gameplay by jumping through the DM's preferred hoops, and the rogue is getting stonewalled for not doing so, even though he, too, is roleplaying: roleplaying a thief.
I am suprized that you shot down the Barbarian/Rogue example here. Ok the Rogue made a Gather Information check, and he does have a high skill, but he also didn't do anything to actually gather that information either.
If he was trying to craft a sword without a forge, iron, or any other material or time spent, by simply rolling the dice and walking away, would you give him a sword?
If a player at your table said, "I am going to rent a room for the night, lock the windows and doors, and then hide under the bed and sleep, oh and by the way" rolls dice "I make a Gather Information check" what information do you give him, beyond "this town doesn't sweep under the beds very often, judging from the dust bunnies you find"?
The Half Orc barbarian with no skill ranks, negative Charisma score, is going to find more information without rolling then the rogue who didn't actually do anything to gather information. The Rogue is stonewalling himself here.
As for him being a thief, yes that is rollplaying, but there are risks to pick pocketing as well as Rewards, if it is just press button, get treat, then that is all you will ever, if they are clumsy about it, Such as spending an entire night in one location steeling from every customer that comes into the one tavern, getting caught is pretty inevitable, but I am not going to punish him for looking for a good mark, or planning a heist/con job, only a foolish DM would object to the players creating their own plot hooks.
As for the optional rules of rolling a natural "1" and dropping your weapon, hurting yourself with it, or hitting another players, -rolls eyes- I hate that rule and would get rid of it except my players absolutely and totally love it, their eyes sparkle and light up one each natural "1" even more then when they score critical hits. They have literally house ruled me to be an absolute abusive jerk, break their weapons, score a critical hit on themselves, slip and fall, drop their sword off a cliff, lost forever, if I did this any other time it would be a fight, but they roll a 1 and they beam and smile and laugh in excitement over it.
