Well the spell says "Any living creature" which excludes undead vampires.
i know. I couldn't come up with a good beast analog.
But then again, if you are going to make all these exceptions you'll have a huge list for every monster/ power.
As for losing the benefits how does that work with conditions you inflicted on others? Does the poison you injected into your victim become normal saliva when you revert back? Do all your victims that you turned to stone revert back?
Yes to all. Any lingering effects of your form end with the form.
If so can you have one character turn you to stone while in your polymorphed form to prevent the spell effect from reverting?
Sure. That's quite a sacrifice to make though.
Looking at previous editions, the spell(s) made it very clear that you that you didn't gain any of the special abiltities of the new form for this very reason.
5e is very different in this regard.
The more I think about it, I really like the 5e version simply because turning into the monster and losing all your powers just makes the game easy and less open to abuse. There are no exceptions or a long list of special rules, everything you need is in the monster description.
DM to player, "You ARE just like the monster now and that's all you can do. I'm sorry were you trying to abuse the system?"
I like how the polymorph spells in 2e provided examples. The 5e spell doesn't contain examples which is one reason why I think they are to be interpreted literally and without exception.
IMO, if the designers wanted the players to retain any character abiltities/powers then the spells would look more like those of 2e.
Here are the polymorph spells from 2e.
Note, that if you polymoprhed into a form that was strange then you got a -2 to the attack rolls.
Range: 0 Components: V Duration: 2 turns/level Casting Time: 4 Area of Effect: The caster Saving Throw: None When this spell is cast, the wizard is able to assume the form of any creature, save those that are noncorporeal, from as small as a wren to as large as a hippopotamus. Furthermore, the wizard gains its physical mode of locomotion and breathing as well. No system shock roll is required. The spell does not give the new form's other abilities (attack, magic, special movement, etc.), nor does it run the risk of the wizard changing personality and mentality.
When the polymorph occurs, the caster's equipment, if any, melds into the new form (in particularly challenging campaigns, the DM may allow protective devices, such as a ring of protection, to continue operating effectively). The caster retains all mental abilities, including spell use, assuming the new form allows completion of the proper verbal and somatic components and the material components are available. A caster not used to a new form might be penalized at the DM's option (for example, -2 penalty to attack rolls) until he practices sufficiently to master it.
Thus, a wizard changed into an owl could fly, but his vision would be human; a change to a black pudding would enable movement under doors or along halls and ceilings, but not the pudding's offensive (acid) or defensive capabilities. Naturally, the strength of the new form is sufficient to enable normal movement. The spellcaster can change his form as often as desired for the duration of the spell, each change requiring a round. The wizard retains his own hit points, attack rolls, and saving throws. The wizard can end the spell at any time; when voluntarily returning to his own form and ending the spell, he regains 1d12 hit points. The wizard also will return to his own form when slain or when the effect is dispelled, but no hit points are restored in these cases.
Polymorph Other
(Alteration)
Range: 5 yds./level
Components: V, S, M Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 4 Area of Effect: 1 creature Saving Throw: Neg.
The polymorph other spell is a powerful magic that completely alters the form and ability, and possibly the personality and mentality, of the recipient. Of course, while a creature with a lower Intelligence can be polymorphed in form into something with a higher Intelligence, it will not gain that creature's mental ability. The reverse--polymorphing a higher Intelligence creature into one of significantly lower Intelligence--results in a creature much more intelligent than appearances would lead one to believe. The polymorphed creature must succeed on a system shock (see Table 3) roll to see if it survives the change. After this, it must make a special Intelligence check to see if it retains its personality (see following).
The polymorphed creature acquires the form and physical abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into, while retaining its own mind. Form includes natural Armor Class (that due to skin toughness, but not due to quickness, magical nature, etc.), physical movement abilities (walking, swimming, and flight with wings, but not plane shifting, blinking, teleporting, etc.), and attack routines (claw/claw/bite, swoop, rake, and constriction, but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, etc.). Hit points and saving throws do not change from the original form. Noncorporeal forms cannot be assumed. Natural shapeshifters (lycanthropes, dopplegangers, higher level druids, etc.) are affected for but one round, and can then resume their normal form.
If slain, the polymorphed creature reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. (Note that most creatures generally prefer their own form and will not willingly stand the risk of being subjected to this spell!) As class and level are not attributes of form, abilities derived from either cannot be gained by this spell, nor can exact ability scores be specified.
When the polymorph occurs, the creature's equipment, if any, melds into the new form (in particularly challenging campaigns, the DM may allow protective devices, such as a ring of protection, to continue operating effectively). The creature retains its mental abilities, including spell use, assuming the new form allows completion of the proper verbal and somatic components and the material components are available. Creatures not used to a new form might be penalized at the DM's option (for example, -2 to attack rolls) until they practice sufficiently to master it.
When the physical change occurs, there is a base 100% chance that the subject's personality and mentality change into that of the new form (i.e., a roll of 20 or less on 1d20). For each 1 point of Intelligence of the subject, subtract 1 from the base chance on 1d20. Additionally, for every Hit Die of difference between the original form and the form it is assuming, add or subtract 1 (depending on whether polymorphed form has more Hit Dice [or levels] or fewer Hit Dice [or levels] than original, respectively). The chance for assumption of the personality and mentality of the new form is checked daily until the change takes place.
A subject acquiring the mentality of the new form has effectively become the creature whose form was assumed and comes under the control of the DM until recovered by a wish spell or similar magic. Once this final change takes place, the creature acquires the new form's full range of magical and special abilities.
For example: If a 1 Hit Die orc of 8 Intelligence is polymorphed into a white dragon with 6 Hit Dice, it is 85% (20 - 8 Intelligence + 5 level difference [6-1] = 17 out of 20 = 85%) likely to actually become one in all respects, but in any case it has the dragon's physical and mental capabilities. If it does not assume the personality and mentality of a white dragon, it knows what it formerly knew as well.
The wizard can use a dispel magic spell to change the polymorphed creature back to its original form, and this requires a system shock roll. Those who have lost their individuality and are then converted back maintain the belief that they are actually the polymorphed creature and attempt to return to that form. Thus, the orc who comes to believe he is a white dragon, when converted back to his orc form, steadfastly maintains he is really a white dragon polymorphed into the shape of an orc. His companions will most likely consider him mad.
The material component of this spell is a caterpillar cocoon.
An 8th level Wizard has 8 daily spells. If you pick the arcanist you get one more daily spell slots. If you pick the others you get an encounter spell.
8 spells is 2 spells per encounter in a balanced day (according to the play test packet). So you have 3+ at-will spells + 2 daily spells + 1 encounter or 1 extra daily.
So what 2 daily spells can we just about defeat anything in the game.
Here are the top monsters in the packet:
Chimera Lvl 8 hp 114 Dragon, Black lvl 9 hp 126 Dragon, Green lvl 9 hp 184 Dragon, White lvl 8 hp 105
Wall of Fire in a circle facing in around a target can deal 2d8 per round and 4d8 to move through it. That would do some nice damage to the Chimera, the others would simply fly out of it.
Polymorph looks like a good contendor. The Ankheg alone would be a nice thing to turn into. The giant carniverous Ape is nice, but its HD is too high by 2. Maybe at 10th level. Basilisk isn't bad, At the very least it causes the creature it fights to fight with disadvantage every round. That could seriously turn the tide of a battle. Some of the dinosaurs look really nice. It would be like doing a fireball to the target. The Sabre toothed tiger can get 3 attacks so that one looks nice. Griffon is pretty nice with 3 attacks. With Flyby and 3 attacks the Pegasus isn't bad.
Now if we combine polymorph with blink we get high AC as well as a 50/50 chance of not being able to be attacked.
So blink and polymorph would be able to win.
Combine the two and you get one nasty creature. I'd hate to see a Blink Ankheg, with the right tradition you can get some nice armor boosts.
So a Blink Ankheg with mage armor would have an AC of 20 and a 50% automatic miss chance for creatures targeting it. An 8th level Wizard would have 6+2 (Con bonus) + (4 * 7) + (2 * 7) = 50 hit points. Since the attack bonus of the Wizard is not a limitation of its form, its a class feature we add that in. It would lose any racial features so we won't worry about what race the Wizard is.
Blink Ankheg (Mage Armor) AC: 20 HP: 50 Bite: +8; 2d6+2 piercing, 1d6 acid, auto hit grabbed target, auto grabs target on hit. hit 55% 3d6+2 (12.5) = 6.875; crit 5% 3d6+2 (20) = 1; Total = 7.875 Acid Spray (Recharge 6): DC 9 Dex save for half; 3d6 acid. Reacharge 16%; Save fail 40% 3d6 (10.5) = 4.2; Save succeed 60% 3d6 (5.25) = 3.15; Total = 7.35 DPR Bite 84% = 6.615; Acid Spray 16% = 1.176; Total = 7.791
So lets take the Green Dragon AC: 16 HP: 184 Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage. hit 10% 2d12 + 6 (19) = 1.9; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) = 1.5 Claw:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage. hit 10% 2d8 + 6 (15) = 1.5; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) = 1.1 Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice). N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite) Total physical attacks per round: claw 1.1/claw 1.1/ bite 1.5 = 3.7 Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4 Recharge: 32%; 70% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 17.5; save succeed 30% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 3.75; subTotal = 21.25; Total after 50% miss = 10.625; DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 2.516; 32% Poison Breath = 3.4; Total = 5.916;
So the Wizard would die in the 9th round on average (if you ran 4k battles). The Dragon would die in the 24th round on average (if you ran 4k battles).
So it comes up that the Wizard with those two spells can't take out a dragon. there is also the concentration problem. The DCs are doable but there is a decent chance that the Wizard will fail one of the saves by the time the fight was half way through. Of course there is no real way to calculate the auto hit damage the Wizard would get with the Ankheg's Bite attack, unless... we count the percent chance each round that the Ankheg can hit:
Round Chance of a single hit 1 60% 2 84% 3 93.6% 4 97.44%
By the fourth round its almost a given that the Wizard has hit and grabbed the Dragon. So lets average that out for an 83.76% chance of auto damage in 4 rounds. I'm not sure where to proceed from here though. It would swing the battle in the Wizards favor by increasing the DPR to 32.5 over 7.875. So if it grabbed in the first round the Dragon would be dead in 6 rounds. So I'm guesstimating that it would almost be an even match.
Edit: More comparisons
Wizard Polymorphed as Pegasus Vs. Green Dragon Pegasus (Battle Mage: Stone Skin + Shield + Polymorph->Pegasus) HP: 50 (Con+2) AC 16 (14 + shield) Speed 60ft., fly 120ft. Con 16(+3) Things to look up: Flyby (no opportunity attacks when moving away from a creature) Bite: +8 (+4 Griffon, +4 Wizard); 1d4+4 hit 55% 1d4+4 (2.5 +4 = 6.5) = 3.575; crit 5% 1d4+4+5d6(4+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 25.5) = 1.275; Total = 4.85 Hoof: +8 (see above); 1d6 + 4 hit 55% 1d6+4 (3.5+4=7.5) = 4.125; crit 5% 1d6+4+5d6 (6+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 27.5) = 1.375; Total = 5.5 Hoof 5.5/Hoof 5.5/Bite 4.85 = 15.85 DPR 15.85
Green Dragon AC: 16 HP: 184 Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage. hit 45% 2d12 + 6 (19) (-stone skin 9.5) = 4.275; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) (-stone skin 15) = 0.75; Total = 5.025 Claw:+6; 15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage. hit 45% 2d8 + 6 (15) (-stone skin 7.5) = 3.375; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) (-stone skin 11) = 0.55; Total = 3.925 Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice). N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite) Total physical attacks per round: claw 3.925 / claw 3.925 / bite 5.025 = 12.875 Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4 Recharge: 32%; Con +3 to save; 60% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 15; save succeed 40% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 5; subTotal = 20 DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 8.755; 32% Poison Breath = 6.4; Total = 15.155
Rounds it takes for a level 8 WizAsus to kill a Green Dragon is 12 rounds. Rounds it takes for a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 WizAsus is 4 rounds.
Fighter Vs. Green Dragon Green Dragon AC: 16 HP: 184
Bite/Tail Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice). hit 35% 2d8+6 (15) - parry(9) = (6) = 2.1; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) - parry(9) = (13) = 0.65; Total = 2.75 Bite With advantage hit 52.75% 2d12 + 6 (19) - parry(9) = (10) = 5.275; crit 9.75% 2d12 + 6 (30) -parry(9) = (21) = 2.0475; Total = 7.3225 Total physical attacks per round: Tail 2.75 / Bite 7.3225 = 10.0725 Again strictly inferior.
Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4 Recharge: 32%; +10.0469 to save; 24.7655% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 6.191375; save succeed 75.2345% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 9.4043125; subTotal = 15.5956875 DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 8.058; 32% Poison Breath = 4.99062; Total = 13.04862;
Level 8 Fighter HP: 84 AC: 18 (plate mail) Constitution: 16 (+3) Strength: 20 (+5) Weapon: Great Axe Using Parry and Great Fortitude Parry: Average roll of 2d8 = 9 Great Fortitude: Average roll of 2d8 take highest = 6.0469 1st attack: 2d6(weapon + dwarven increase) + 5(str) + 1(magic weapon). 2nd attack: 2d6(weapon + dwarven increase) + 5(str) + 1(magic weapon). Attack: +4(class) +5(str) +1(magic weapon) = +10 Dragon AC: 16, Fighter needs a 6 to hit, that means a 70% hit rate. 1st attack: hit 65% 2d6 + 5 + 1 (13) = 8.45; crit 5% 2d6 + 5 + 1 + 5d6[crit] (39) = 1.95; Total = 10.4 2nd attack: hit 65% 2d6 + 5 + 1 (13) = 8.45; crit 5% 2d6 + 5 + 1 + 5d6[crit] (39) = 1.95; Total = 10.4 Combined total = 20.8
Rounds it takes a level 8 Fighter to kill a Green Dragon is 9 rounds. Rounds it takes a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 Fighter is 15 rounds.
Wizard Polymorphed as Griffon Vs. Green Dragon Griffon (Battle Mage: Stone Skin + Mage Armor(always on) + Shield + Polymorph->Griffon) HP: 50 (Con+2) AC 16 (Mage armor (12+2=14) + shield) Speed 30ft., fly 80ft. Con 16(+3) Bite: +8 (+4 Griffon, +4 Wizard); 1d8+4 hit 55% 1d8+4 (4.5 +4 = 8.5) = 4.675; crit 5% 1d8+4+5d6(8+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 29.5) = 1.475; Total = 6.15 Claw: +8 (see above); 1d6 + 4 hit 55% 1d6+4 (3.5+4=7.5) = 4.125; crit 5% 1d6+4+5d6 (6+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 27.5) = 1.375; Total = 5.5 Claw 5.5/Claw 5.5/Bite 6.15 = 17.15 DPR 17.15
Green Dragon AC: 16 HP: 184 Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage. hit 45% 2d12 + 6 (19) (-stone skin 9.5) = 4.275; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) (-stone skin 15) = 0.75; Total = 5.025 Claw:+6; 15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage. hit 45% 2d8 + 6 (15) (-stone skin 7.5) = 3.375; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) (-stone skin 11) = 0.55; Total = 3.925 Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice). N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite) Total physical attacks per round: claw 3.925 / claw 3.925 / bite 5.025 = 12.875 Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4 Recharge: 32%; Con +3 to save; 60% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 15; save succeed 40% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 5; subTotal = 20 DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 8.755; 32% Poison Breath = 6.4; Total = 15.155
Rounds it takes for a level 8 WizGrif to kill a Green Dragon is 11 rounds. Rounds it takes for a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 WizGrif is 4 rounds.
I see some weaknesses on your analysis.
1. If you have blink active and Bite, one of two things will happen. -Ankheg states that any creature grabbed/bit travels with the Ankheg, meaning that blink just drags the green dragon with it. -You blink, turn etherial, and no longer have a bite/Grab on the green dragon.
This means you either lose the automatic damage, or you lose the 50/50 chance of being hit.
Just because you have grabbed a dragon doesn't mean you have the only control of breaking contact. The dragon has a tail, a head, a breath weapon, or even its own massive weight. A dragon that decides to do a belly flop on an ankheg is going to do some massive damage to it.
Plus, when you polymorph you are losing your HP. The spell says nothing about retaining wizard hp, which means that you go from 50hp to an average of 39.
EDIT: anyone want to do probabilies on the loss of polymorph. How fast would it go away?
You mean breaking concentration?
yeah what is the probability that the dragon rocking mostly claw/claw/bite, and breaths when it recharges, knocks out a wizards concentration. Every single time the dragon hits and deals damage (three times per round when he rocks claw/claw/bite) the wizard needs to make a concentration check equal to half the damage. As an ankheg you have a con of 13 so you have a +1 to every concentration check. SO basically every time the dragon hits the wizard, the wizard needs to make a basically raw d20 roll, with a difficulty equal to half the damage dealt, to see if he turns back into a wizard. Figure out the probable incoming damage to the wizard each round from individual sources and figure out how long before a wizard loses the polymorph.
EDIT: anyone want to do probabilies on the loss of polymorph. How fast would it go away?
You mean breaking concentration?
yeah what is the probability that the dragon rocking mostly claw/claw/bite, and breaths when it recharges, knocks out a wizards concentration. Every single time the dragon hits and deals damage (three times per round when he rocks claw/claw/bite) the wizard needs to make a concentration check equal to half the damage. As an ankheg you have a con of 13 so you have a +1 to every concentration check. SO basically every time the dragon hits the wizard, the wizard needs to make a basically raw d20 roll, with a difficulty equal to half the damage dealt, to see if he turns back into a wizard. Figure out the probable incoming damage to the wizard each round from individual sources and figure out how long before a wizard loses the polymorph.
I think that's another nail (out of several) in the wizard's coffin.
EDIT: anyone want to do probabilies on the loss of polymorph. How fast would it go away?
You mean breaking concentration?
yeah what is the probability that the dragon rocking mostly claw/claw/bite, and breaths when it recharges, knocks out a wizards concentration. Every single time the dragon hits and deals damage (three times per round when he rocks claw/claw/bite) the wizard needs to make a concentration check equal to half the damage. As an ankheg you have a con of 13 so you have a +1 to every concentration check. SO basically every time the dragon hits the wizard, the wizard needs to make a basically raw d20 roll, with a difficulty equal to half the damage dealt, to see if he turns back into a wizard. Figure out the probable incoming damage to the wizard each round from individual sources and figure out how long before a wizard loses the polymorph.
I think that's another nail (out of several) in the wizard's coffin.
I'm guessing so but if someone has time to actually run the numbers I wouldn't mind seeing them.
I consider it another evidence that the requires concentration is a very real boon to the games design. Spell caster is allowed to do something interesting and is even more prompted to cast it on somebody else... even without my adjustment.
I consider it another evidence that the requires concentration is a very real boon to the games design. Spell caster is allowed to do something interesting and is even more prompted to cast it on somebody else... even without my adjustment.
Actually yeah given the concentration requirement it is better for the wizard to cast the polymorph on something else other than himself so he can hold concentration while the other guy does the painful work.
