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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 2:35PM
#1
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2005
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Do they stack?
I would say no but some may argue they work together.
If I have cure light wounds with the Effect: The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge.
HEALER'S LORE
When you restore hit points to a creature by using a cleric power that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points regained, but only if the healing involves the creature spending a healing surge.
What's your opinion ? Does healer's lore and powers who states ''target regains hit points as if it had spend a healing surge?''
Thanks for you advice !
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 3:07PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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No, Healer's Lore only works when a surge is spent, not when healing is done as if a surge is spent.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 3:18PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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anything that requires a surge to be spent does not work with things that state "as if you had spent a healing surge" because then the question "did you spend a healing surge ?" comes back as no.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 3:24PM
#4
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Healer's Lore was errata'd specifically so it wouldn't work like that. It is the reason stated in the update doc, so there isn't really any debate, even if you wanted to argue the phrasing made it a possible interpretation of RAW.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 3:36PM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2005
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thanks !
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7 months ago ::
Nov 06, 2012 - 9:25AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Healer's Lore was errata'd specifically so it wouldn't work like that. It is the reason stated in the update doc, so there isn't really any debate.
Wait, what? The update changed:
"When you grant healing with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains."
to
"When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains."
It created the surge debate (i.e. surge considerations could not have occurred in the original text).
Spoiler:
Show
In regard to 4e rules, we normally interpret "as if" into mean the "the same as", or more specifically (in an exception based system) "exactly the same as for all purposes, except where indicated otherwise". If it's preceded by a condition (example: "regain hit points as if"), then it would act 'the same as' only to that condition ('hit points' in this case), as that is a specified restriction. However, we wouldn't normally make further restrictions unless they were specified; so that statement would seem to still encompass any riders specifically related to HP (including detrimental effects, like a Bog hag's aura)
Examples of 'as if' use:
PHB p.114, Pinpointing Arrow: "You can attack an invisible target as if it wasn’t invisible."... would we limit this to negating concealment, or would we allow other (attack specific) riders like sneak attack, combat advantage, etc.? I would interpret the latter, based on the term "as if".
PHB p.233, Dancing Weapon: "You can deliver basic attacks and attack powers through the dancing weapon as if you were holding it yourself"... I would assume that means that we would treat it as being held for all purposes related specifically to the attack.
PHB p.246, Wavestrider Boots: "You can move across liquid surfaces as if they were normal terrain"... I would interpret this as treating the liquid as normal terrain for all purposes related to movement (also: the word "can" in the phrase denotes this as optional for the wearer).
For a similar example: the general consensus when using other powers as MBA's is:
"counts as" & "can be used as" = MBA (and is affected by anything that affects MBAs).
"in place of" = not an MBA.
Another reference, fwiw (i.e. not that it'll necessarily help):
PHB p.58: "Regaining Hit Points: Some powers allow you or someone else to regain hit points. Sometimes the recipient of this benefit needs to spend a healing surge (page 293), but if a power description includes the wording “as if . . . had spent a healing surge,” then the beneficiary gains the appropriate number of hit points but does not spend a healing surge to do so."
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7 months ago ::
Nov 06, 2012 - 10:00AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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I don't think there is room for any debate. Cure Light Wounds doesn't qualify for Healer's Lore since it isn't a power that let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points.
Sidenote: The DDi Compendium shows an entirely different text:
Player's Handbook: Your study of healing allows you to make the most of your healing prayers. When you grant healing with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains.
Rule Update PDF: Your study of healing allows you to make the most of your healing prayers. When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains.
DDi Compendium: When you restore hit points to a creature by using a cleric power that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points regained, but only if the healing involves the creature spending a healing surge.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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7 months ago ::
Nov 06, 2012 - 10:52AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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I don't think there is room for any debate.
Did you read my spoiler text discussiing the ramifications of "as if"?
The DDi Compendium shows an entirely different text:
Yup, but there appears to be no rule changed between:
"When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains."
and
"When you restore hit points to a creature by using a cleric power that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points regained, but only if the healing involves the creature spending a healing surge."
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7 months ago ::
Nov 06, 2012 - 11:14AM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Yes i have read the ramifications and believe that:
When you let a ''target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge''
Is different than:
''When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points''
As one specifically calls for the expenditure of a healing surge.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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7 months ago ::
Nov 06, 2012 - 1:43PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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When the Healer's Lore errata was first published I asked if this applied to "As if you spent a surge" . A WOTC employee (GrebB) who was responsible for the errata responded that healer's lore no longer worked with those powers. Besides you should be taking Battle Cleric's Lore instead. 
my handbooks & builds
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