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This is my opinion of what the Rogue should have been. Open up the play test classes packet and skim down to the Rogue class.
Replace the advancement chart with this one:
The Rogue
Weapon Expertise
Level Attack Dice Class Features
1 +2 1d4 Expertise, Rogue Scheme, Combat Maneuver
2 +2 1d6 Exploration Maneuver
3 +2 1d6 Social Maneuver
4 +2 2d6
5 +3 2d6 Combat Maneuver
6 +3 2d6 Exploration Maneuver
7 +3 2d6 Social Maneuver
8 +3 2d8
9 +3 2d8 Combat Maneuver
10 +4 3d10 Exploration Maneuver
Remove the "Level 1: Expertise" part that says they get Skill Mastery automatically to say they get the Scheme Feature listed with the Scheme.
Change the Schemes as follows:
Acrobat
Feature: You gain advantage on all Tumble checks made without a timed danger element (such as combat)
Skill: Tumble
Maneuvers: Controlled Fall, Tumbling Dodge, Vault, Expert Performance (see below), Spring Attack, Lightning Reflexes.
Enforcer
Feature: You gain advantage on intimidate checks against targets that have fewer hit dice than your level.
Skill: Intimidate
Maneuvers: Dirty Fighting (see below), Not It (see below), Threatening Glare (see below), Manipulate (see below), Get Over It (see below), Pursue (see below)
Rake
Feature: You gain advantage on bluff checks that are not hurried or threatened.
Skill: Bluff
Maneuvers: Feint (see below), Tumbling Dodge, Controlled Fall, Convincing Speech (see below), Distraction (see below)
Thief
Feature: You gain advantage on Sleight of Hand checks against targets that have fewer hit dice than you have levels.
Skill: Sleight of Hand
Maneuvers: Mug (see below), Trap Sense (see below), Unseen (see below), Black Mail (see below), Scout (see below)
Skill Master
Feature: You gain additional skills listed below.
Skills: Choose four skills from the skill list.
Maneuvers: Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Skill Mastery, Second Chance (see below), Skill Focus (see below), Too Good (see below)
Assassin
You are the shadows. You bide your time and strike at the opportune moment to take enemies down in a single blow.
Feature: You can stealth even while being observed by using a distraction ("look over there", a smoke bomb, or something equally distracting).
Skills: Sneak
Maneuvers: Sneak Attack (see below), Careful Listening (See Below), Unseen (See Below), Honor Among Theives (see below), Nick (see below)
Maneuvers
Dirty Fighting
You use cunning and guile to deliver a deadly attack against an unsuspecting foe.
Effect: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend expertise dice to increase the attack's damage against that target, provided you have advantage against the target or it is in reach of a creature friendly to you. Roll all the expertise dice you spend, and add up their results. The damage gains a bonus equal to that total. In addition if you have advantage and the creature is in reach of a creature friendly to you deal 1d4 extra damage per Rogue level.
Pursue
You are fast on the heals of a retreating foe.
Effect: When a target that is engaged with you uses an action to disengage, roll Expertise Dice, you may move that many feet closer to the target as a reaction. Minimum 5'. (round up to the nearest 5' if using a grid).
Distraction
Using body language or speech you distract an enemy and allow an ally to make an opportunity attack.
Effect: Instead of moving you may make an opposed bluff check with a target within 20'. Roll Expertise Dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed an ally adjacent to the target may make an opportunity attack. If they hit they deal your Expertise Dice total as damage instead of damage or any other effect.
Scout
Your foreknowledge of an area or persons behavior allows you to have an advantage when dealing with the area or person.
Effect: If you have foreknowledge (plans, descriptions, charts, or other detailed knowledge) of an area or person you may add your highest Expertise Dice roll to Listen, Spot, or Search checks in the area or dealing with the person when not rushed or threatened.
Too Good
You are so well versed in a skill that even when you are at a disadvantage you have a great chance to succeed.
Effect: When this Maneuver is chosen at level up pick a skill. When using that skill when you have disadvantage you may add your highest Expertise Dice to the lowest roll.
Nick
Even though you missed you are still able to hurt your target due to your superior skill.
Effect: If sneak attack misses by 5 or less you may deal the highest Expertise Dice you stored up as damage to the target.
Not It
You intimidate an opponent into not targeting you directly.
Effect: Make an intimidate check, roll expertise dice and add the highest dice result to the intimidate check. If the targets opposed Charisma check is lower they cannot target you directly this round. They can still include you in area effects, but they cannot be centered on you. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Threatening Glare
You keep your eye on a foe in range and make threatening gestures every chance you get distracting them.
Effect: When the target is within range of your melee attack and they make an attack against anyone but you as the target, you can roll any expertise dice you have left. They subtract the highest expertise dice result from their attack roll. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Feint
You use trickery and flattery to make a foe think you are attacking one way instead of another.
Effect: Instead of moving you may make an opposed Bluff check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you win the opposed check, your next attack in the same round against the target of your feint has advantage. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Convincing Speech
You give a rousing speech that anyone that doesn't know you is fooled by.
Effect: Make an opposed Persuade check. Roll any expertise dice and add the highest to the Persuade check. Each person that hears your speech and can understand it that doesn't know you well by reputation or in person can be convinced of the subject of the speech as per the Persuade skill. Those that know you gain advantage on the opposed check. The speech usually takes at least a minute or more, as decided by the DM. During this time you cannot make attacks or other checks because the nature of the speech includes body language and demeanor. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same targets grant the target advantage on their checks.
Expert Performance
You give an excellent performance by jumping and dodging and tumbling around the room, running up walls and jumping off, and other daring tricks.
Effect: Make an opposed perform or tumble check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, the targets are entertained by your performance. This performance can only be used in a non-dangerous situation where the Rogue is not threatened or rushed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Manipulate
You glare menacingly at someone. They are convinced that bad things will happen if they don't agree.
Effect: Make an opposed Intimidate check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, the target is convinced that they will be harmed if they don't agree to what you want. You must explain what you want and you can't perform this maneuver if threatened or rushed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Mug
As you slash you grab at an item your foe has and remove it from them.
Effect: As part of your normal attack make an opposed Sleight of Hand check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, you are able to take a random (DM determined) item that is not worn, held, or otherwise difficult to get at. This item could be a handful of ammo (1d8 arrows, darts, or throwing daggers), a potion, sheathed weapon, or any other similar item. Magical items cannot be taken in this way if they are attuned due to the magic bond interfering with the inattention of the target. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Trap Sense
At the last moment you realize you have triggered a trap and dodge out of the way instinctually.
Effect: When a trap causes you to make a saving throw, roll expertise dice and add the highest to your saving throw roll.
Unseen
You move in such a way that even an observer doesn't see you.
Effect: As part of a regular attack in which you have stealth, you may make a stealth check as part of your move. You must end your move in an area that allows stealth such as shadows or out of sight of the target. make an opposed stealth check. Roll your expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you hit with your attack the target has advantage on the check. If you succeed you are stealthed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Black Mail
Through expert use of observations and intimations you convince a person that you have something on them, whether you do or not. You also convince them that if something happens to you it will come out and ruin their reputation.
Effect: When not threatened or rushed you may make an opposed bluff or persuade check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed you convince the target that you have some information that they don't want generally known. You also convince them that any action taken against you will automatically reveal the information to the general public. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Second Chance
You realize you have made a mistake and backtrack until you are able to correct it.
Effect: When you fail a skill check, you may roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If the new total allows you to succeed you succeed.
Skill Focus
You focus totally on one of your Scheme's skills to the exclusion of all else.
Requirement: Skill Mastery
Effect: When using Skill Mastery on one of your Scheme's skills you may re-roll any 1's if you are not rushed or threatened.
Get Over It
You convince yourself its only a flesh wound
Effect: When damaged outside of combat due to the environment you are able to roll expertise dice and ignore the dice result of damage.
Sneak Attack
You bide your time and strike with deadly accuracy
Effect: While stealthed you may carefully study a single target each round. When you do this you store up expertise dice. When you attack with advantage against the target you may add all of your expertise dice to the damage of the attack if you hit. In addition you count this attack as a critical hit dealing critical damage. If you miss, you lose the stored up dice. Any action other than moving causes you to lose stored up dice. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Careful Listening
You can tell what is going on due to your superior trained sense of hearing.
Effect: When listening you make an opposed listen check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed you not only hear that there are specific sounds in the area, you are able to tell what those sounds are, so a slight crunch of pebbles might indicate 3 small creatures are stealthily approaching. The sound of a drip might indicate that there is a wine cask leaking in the next room.
Honor Among Theives
You can convince others with your demeanor that you honor your word when you give it.
Effect: Make an opposed persuade check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed the target is convinced that you will not go back on your word. This doesn't mean that you actually must not go back on your word, only that the target is entirely convinced you won't. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.
Maneuver Categories
Combat Tumbling Dodge, Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Not It, Threatening Glare, Feint, Mug, Unseen, Sneak Attack
Exploration Controlled Fall, Vault, Get Over It, Trap Sense, Skill Mastery, Second Chance, Skill Focus, Careful Listening
Social Expert Performance, Manipulate, Convincing Speech, Black Mail, Skill Mastery, Second Chance, Skill Focus, Honor Among Theives
There probably needs to be more maneuvers to keep up with the suggested progression, but overall I just created a better Rogue in about 2 hours. I'm wondering what's going on with the developers and how the current Rogue got past their in house and friends and family testers and any mathematicians they have on hand.
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2010
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Heck, it´s pretty nice on a first glance. I´m not a game designer, just a regular player, but without actually testing it, just reading it makes me way more excited about the rogue than the playtest material. I prefer this rogue over the playtest version. Some very nice ideas going on here. It[s nice how you implement "social and exploration maneuvers" and it totally fits the feel and language of D&D Next.
I would like to have combat maneuver tunned up a little bit, and seeing some "striker" stuff on it, like dealing a insane amount of damage in rare occasion. Also for the Skills, I imagine thief should be able to do something extra with the "thievery related skills", something no other characters with those skills could accomplish.
Just personal thoughts about the rogue... Wonderful job so far on your class suggestions I thinks it´s dawn valuable, keep it up.
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Heck, it´s pretty nice on a first glance. I´m not a game designer, just a regular player, but without actually testing it, just reading it makes me way more excited about the rogue than the playtest material. I prefer this rogue over the playtest version. Some very nice ideas going on here. It[s nice how you implement "social and exploration maneuvers" and it totally fits the feel and language of D&D Next.
I would like to have combat maneuver tunned up a little bit, and seeing some "striker" stuff on it, like dealing a insane amount of damage in rare occasion. Also for the Skills, I imagine thief should be able to do something extra with the "thievery related skills", something no other characters with those skills could accomplish.
Just personal thoughts about the rogue... Wonderful job so far on your class suggestions I thinks it´s dawn valuable, keep it up.
I knew I forgot something. Let me add in the Assassin build...
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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See Lokiare, one of your better posts  .
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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I find it valuable, but I have 1 big question.
Right now a huge chunk of people are criticizing rogues complete dominance of the exploration and interaction pillars. With this proposed setup, wouldn't this only exacerbate this by making them good in combat, but keeping their dominance over the other two pillars?
My two copper.
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I find it valuable, but I have 1 big question.
Right now a huge chunk of people are criticizing rogues complete dominance of the exploration and interaction pillars. With this proposed setup, wouldn't this only exacerbate this by making them good in combat, but keeping their dominance over the other two pillars?
Not really, especially if they give the Fighter a similar maneuver progression with combat, exploration, and social maneuvers...
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