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Nov 7, 2012 -- 12:58PM, StevenO wrote:

Please don't "Quick Reply" this with a quote.  All that happens is you clog up the page with redundant information.

Nov 7, 2012 -- 9:27AM, Oma012 wrote:

1- sorry but is only a mundane weapon with an unknow change in her properties but again this will work like a CON but the item Dont have CON or Temporal HP but Temporal HP can't be replenishment
2- ¬¬
3-is a mystery but i remember a spell like mending but more powerful that repair item but i don't remember it maybe is the only way or make INT your weapon and make it susceptible to Repair damage Spells.

4- Rules Compendium talk about Objects and Magic

5- Sorry but the craft make the mundane item not the Magical Item and while magic the craft can't repair it, remember that the weapon is trasmuted.

1.  

3.  So the ONLY way to REPAIR a magic item is through the use of a spell a character may, or may not, have?  Oh, and a zero-level spell at that.  I'm pretty sure a master craftsman, that is one who can easily make the DC 20 of a masterwork item, can make repairs that are just as good even if they take a little bit longer.

4.  Too bad I don't own the RC.  Even so I don't see anything in your post that actually supports your position.  Oma, you should also address my question about using the Magic Weapon spell to repair a mundane weapon.

5.  Even an epic weapon is still just a weapon and that weapon may have been created by some lowly craftsman.  I'm now guessing the cost of the repair should be based on the items full market value but I still don't see why you master weaponsmith couldn't repair your magic weapon.
 

1- that the rules don't say nothing about this the spell is of trasmutation then the weapon take a unknow change in her properties now your conclution about CON boost have the same problem that my Conclution about temporal HP

2-But again the weapon not is a mundane or MW weapon remember that the weapon are trasmuted then you can only reapair with a craft a weapon that you can make and you can't make a magical weapon with craft only MW then for repair a magical weapon maybe you need work in it while stay in an antimagic field

3-??? ok the book say about Objects 2 things

A) Objects HP and Herdness are based in her material and size

B) Objects with a magic enhancement ADD +2 of hardness and +10 HP for each enhancement bonus

the this rule make a mundane weapon under the effect of magic weapon gain the hardness and the HP temporaly (maybe in this case it work like temporal HP)

4- ok, first a weaponsmith can't make magical weapon then can't repair a magical weapon, remember that was trasmuted, is like say that weaponsmith can repair flesh sword because the MW weapon that he was made was trasmuted to flesh

the special rule in the magic item section say this

REPAIRING MAGIC ITEMS

Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart. The make whole spell also repairs a damaged—but not completely broken—magic item.

with this is more easy say that the weapon maybe is the same and when a magical weapon lose her magic is more realistic use % of damage because you can only repair it at her full state (you dont repair HP) then you always use 20+X Gps in the reparation of the MW weapon

As example the weaponsmith have two weapon a mundane and a magical weapon with the same remain HP (1 HP) and he take the same time and materials to repair both while one weapon have only 20 hps and the onther 60.

then in you example the weapon maybe remain in 7 Hps

Nov 7, 2012 -- 1:49PM, StevenO wrote:

Quoting you for ironies sake


     Making magic items doesn't require the crafting skill to make the item in question, only that the item, such as a Master Worked Sword be provided.

The maker of a Magic sword doesn't make the weapon himself, nor is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor required to make the Sword, any mundane Master Worked item can be used.

Damage done to a magic item is mundane damage and can be done with mundane means, just as the orriginal item is made with mundane means. This would be the same as suggesting that HP damage to a person with Con/hp buffs on cannot be cured with mundane healing, only magical healing. As per the following rule:

Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort.

The damage to magical items is no different then that to mundane items, and both can be repaired with non-magical means.

The rules for repairing damaged Magic items and the rule for repairing Broken magic items make this clear.

Mundane damage can be repaired using the appropriate Mundane craft Skill    :

Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart.

The repair of a damaged (not broken) magic item is done with the Mundance Craft skill. There is no other requirements or difference in this respect then a non-magical item, otherwise the use of the Feats, Magic etc to repair would have greater costs then the non-magical counter part. As is specified in the costs to mend a Broken magic item.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

A broken magic item is different because the magic has been destroyed , after the mundane item is repaired, the enchantment must then be repaired with the above costs in XP, materials and time.

This shows that the use of this feat and spells to restore magical items has an XP/Spell material/time cost, that is based from the enchantment, and for repairing a damaged (but not destroyed) item would run contrary to being the same costs as repairing a mundane item.


Also, Using spells to get a Magic item repaired would mean an additional cost over repairing it's non-magical counterpart. If the item requires spell casting to repair then that means hiring the services of a spell caster, both for casting the spell and for his daily services. Which would be an additional cost over a nonmagical item (Blacksmith charges 1 sp/day)

Thank you for presenting another viewpoint MrCustomer.  While it does a wonderful job of explaining the repair of items do you have any comment on what to do with a weapon's hitpoints when it loses any enhancement bonuses it may have had?  This seems to be the core of the "discussion" Oma and I were having with me bring up repairing an item and comparing that to healing the temporary hitpoints he claims an enhancement bonus adds.

Damage done to a magic item is mundane damage and can be done with mundane means, just as the original item is made with mundane means. This would be the same as suggesting that HP damage to a person with Con/hp buffs on cannot be cured with mundane healing, only magical healing.

I just want to point out one little problem with this.  You can restore the hitpoints gained through a CON buff but (most?) "hp buffs" grant temprary hitpoint which can not be "healed" through any method.

Nov 8, 2012 -- 9:59AM, StevenO wrote:

Oma, it would be extremely nice if you could learn how to post without quoting full posts and giving us impossible "walls of text" to sort through that have little to do with what you say afterward.

Nov 8, 2012 -- 9:27AM, Oma012 wrote:

the problem with this is that the weapon have HP but the reapir dont reagin HP only make it at her Full HP again and here is for what happen if the sword is Dispelled or a mundane sword are under the effect of magic weapon and take damage.

Now if the damage is mundane what happen if you have a mundane Mw Long Sword and a Magical Long Sword +10 with 1 HP both under the rules the both take the same time and money to be repaired while one sword have 10 HP and the other 60 HP and what happen if you dispell this magical weapon with 10 damages, the weapon Exproding?? or the weapon remain in 10 HP or the weapon have a equivalent HP maybe 8 (that is what most consistent to what happens when repairing).

I'll tell you the reason you see repairs to items taking the same time is because it is assumed to take place off-camera, during down time, or what ever else you may call the times when you aren't actively adventuring and counting off rounds.  You don't see "you can repair X hitpoint each hour you work" because 99.9% of the time it is never an issue.  If time is that important I believe most DMs can figure something out.

A Masterwork Longsword has hardness 10 and 5 hp.  A +10 Longsword has hardness 30 and 105 hitpoints.  If both a reduced to 1 hp I'd HATE to see what that epic weapon went through.  If you have a hard time accepting that it would take the same amount of time to repair each of them you could consider the epic weapons magic magnifies the repairs that are happening to it giving it back hp faster.  That of course assumes the +100 hitpoints a +10 weapon gets are not "temporary hitpoints" which can not be restored.  

Oh, and what is with this weapon "exploding" if hit by Dispel Magic?  You know there is a difference between an item failing/falling apart and one exploding.  A "exploding" weapon hints at it potentially causing additional damage which is not the case here.

under the game rules cost the same in time ,gps and DC repair 9 damages to a MW weapon that repair 109 tho the same weapon in her magical version then under the rules this HP is only a equivalent of the mundane version, then we can apply this at the inverse and when the magic weapon have 55/110 her mundane version have 5/10.

and again the temporal HP have the same problem that the CON HP because while you can't regain the losing temporal HP you can't use the CON HP rule if you Don't have CON the explication of this are a boost of adrenaline or metabolism that a object can't have.

Nov 8, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Nov 8, 2012 -- 9:37AM, StevenO wrote:

Thank you for presenting another viewpoint MrCustomer.  While it does a wonderful job of explaining the repair of items do you have any comment on what to do with a weapon's hitpoints when it loses any enhancement bonuses it may have had?  This seems to be the core of the "discussion" Oma and I were having with me bring up repairing an item and comparing that to healing the temporary hitpoints he claims an enhancement bonus adds.

For all intents and purposes it behaves exactly as a creature would under the effects of a Bear's Endurance, they are not temperary Hit Points. Hardness and Hitpoints added is an Enhancement Bonus.


So a +3 Two handed Sword, total hp of say 40, takes 5 damage, leaving 35 hp and is in a anti-magic Field, It looses the +30 HP from the Magic Enhancement and becomes normal sword with 5 damage (5 hp out of 10 left)

When it leaves the field, it regains the +30 HP from the Enhancement Bonus and now has 35 HP again (out of 40hp)

Now if this sword had taken 15 damage (out of 40), leaving it with 25 Hp and it was dispelled, it would loose the 30 hp from the magic Enhancement, leaving it a 10 hp item with 15 damage, which would destroy it.


For the cost of repair and the time required, this is 1/5 of the price to repair. The time to repair is 1/3 of that cost in raw materials, then roll the craft DC either weekly in Silver pieces or daily in Copper peices, multiply your skill check by the item DC to get the amount in silver/copper you have repaired until you reach the total. (I would do this daily for repairs but weekly works too a roll of double the price indicated half a weeks work)

A DM could allow for a partical repair, using the rules above granting a portion of the HP equal to the same ratio of work done. (ie the item took 8 damage and the cost to repair is 200gp, the skill check 25 multipled by the DC 20 is 500 sp or 50 gp, or 1/4th of the work, so the DM can rationalize that 2 HP has been repaired)

Enhancement Bonus
A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

The problem is that the enhancement bonus work in the CON of the creature and then work in her HP as side effect and as is saying in the description only work in Natural Armor, Bonus, and Abilities Scores not in HP directly and under the rules you can't boost the CON of a object because dont have CON.

but now i are more agree that the HP is losing because lose a lot of Sturdiness (but maybe is the hardness) but what happen whit the rule of repair if you use it at inverse the reduction of  HP make the weapon stay in the same % of her HP that was having in her magical version.

and about the Craft check the rules say that is the same to repair the mundane item and always is the same, the damage and her current HP are irrelevants because you only recraft it at her new state then no matter if only have 1 damage or have 19 or 119 always take the same and then this are a equivalent damage %.