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Nov 5, 2012 -- 5:40PM, StevenO wrote:

You still haven't answered the question about repairing a magic weapon Oma.

There is also NOTHING that says that if a game rule changes something temporarily and that thing alters hitpoint that those hitpoints are automatically "temporary hitpoint."  Just look at the hp gained if your CON temporarily is increased.  How many times to we need to point out that just getting hitpoints temporarily is NOT the same as getting temporary hitpoints?

For what it's worth, and with Oma it is nothing, I'm not going to change the hitpoints of a permanent magic item that happens to be getting surpressed by a targetted Dispel Magic (which shouldn't touch a +40 sword) or an AMF (which is insanely powerful because of how absolute it is at such a relatively low level.)  I don't seem to remember bringing EPIC magic items into this discussion at any time.

not for objects but for characters

Hit Points
A measure of a character's health or an object's integrity. Damage decreases current hit points, and lost hit points return with healing or natural recovery. A character's hit point total increases permanently with additional experience and/or permanent increases in Constitution, or temporarily through the use of various special abilities, spells, magic items, or magical effects (see temporary hit points and effective hit point increase).

Temporal Hit Points
Hit points gained for a limited time through certain spells (such as aid) and magical effects. When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum.

Then the more the most similar rule say that this are temporal hit poins.

And for your question again is the same of what happen with a magical weapon whitn 420 Hps and 30 damages (what kind of damage have the weapon???) if the weapon as you say is dispelled the weapon are in -10 HP then if you look the weapon while are magic its look completely destroyed and only united by magic?

Nov 6, 2012 -- 10:08AM, StevenO wrote:

Oma, you do a great job avoiding direct questions and then trying to change the topic.  Are you a politician who is seeking office or re-election?

Since you are not answering my damaged weapon question let me add a little something to it.  Under your idea if that Heavy Mace enchanted to +4 by Greater Magic Weapon took 52 points of damage (another hit in my example) it would be reduced to 8 hitpoints and after the spell effect wears off it will still have 8 hitpoint.  Now the owner can have the weapon repaired bringing it back up to the 20 hitpoints it has undamaged at which point you'll tell me that getting +4 from a Greater Weapon spell would give it +40 hitpoint.  If instead of using a Heavy Mace that gained +4 because of the Greater Magic Weapon spell we use a +4 Heavy Mace (I don't know how to write this out so you can't find some way to argue with it but I'm saying a permanent +4 mace valued at 32312 gp vs. a heavy mace boosted via GMW to +4.) and that item is reduced to 8 hitpoint.  Now how much of that damage can be repaired?  If the 40 hitpoints the +4 enhancement grants are all temporary hp then you could only repair the +4 mace to 20 hitpoints instead of 60.

You apparently do not recognize the difference between hitpoint gained through game rules and those gained "through certain spells and magical effects."  The Magic Weapon spell DOES NOT give an item hitpoints; it gives the item an enhancement bonus and then the game rules give it +10 hitpoints for each +1 enhancement bonus.  If the MW spell said it gave an item +10 temporary hitpoints, along with spelling out other benefits, I couldn't (and wouldn't) argue with you at all but that is NOT what the spell says it does.  It is your failure to understand these differences which makes it so that so many on these board ignore you and there are many times I think about joining them.  I keep trying to educate you Oma but apparently nothing ever sinks in; you may notice that some of your comments go without further comment because they happen to be right but then you get into situations like this where you can not be reasoned with.

you do the same saying nothing again the example of the undead or the permanet MG little damaged and the dispelled.

now about your good point of healing temporal hit points, the rules say about Objects.

HIT POINTS
An object’s hit point total depends on what it’s made of and
how big it is (see the tables). Very large objects can have
separate hit point totals for different sections.

then her hit points are based in the material and the size.

Now about magic

Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the
hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and
10 to the item’s hit points.

then the weapon have +((X)(2)) hardness and +((X)(10)) HP WHILE have enhancement of X

now craft only repair the mundane part of the magical weapon while you need repair damage spells to repair the other damage in the wepon then is probably that a magical protective force encloses the weapon and can be damaged too then when you go to a permanet magical weapon to be repaired the mage only need to repair the magical force because the mundane part be unharmed

as example your weapon with 20+40 Hps was damaged for 39 and the all the damages disrupt almost all the magical protective force of the weapon and in the case of a powerfull permanet wepon with 30 damages that is dispelled only destroy the magical protective force of the weapon and making it mundane

and now here come other question, what happen whit a permanet magical weapon is dispelled???
the rules say that a dispelled weapon lose all, now if you permanet magical weapon +4 take 10 damages and have 60 HP and is dispelled and return to 20 mundane HP when return her magical power the weapon gain again 40 HP and become full??? or in the couter part the mundane part take the damage first??? and the magical protective force holds together the weapon destroyed???? then all can see your weapon totally breaken and say is time to dispell magic.

the more correct is doing a damage equivalence between the magical and the mundane

as example in your weapon if the magic goes her current Hit poins will be 7 (35%)

Nov 6, 2012 -- 3:01PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 6, 2012 -- 10:59AM, Oma012 wrote:

Nov 6, 2012 -- 10:08AM, StevenO wrote:

Oma, you do a great job avoiding direct questions and then trying to change the topic.

you do the same saying nothing again the example of the undead or the permanet MG little damaged and the dispelled.

Interesting.  What direct questions am I avoiding?  If you are asking some I am probably not the only one who doesn't see them; heck, a lot of the time I can barely understand what you are trying to say at all.

As for your Undead with hitpoints from the psionic power Vigor that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this overall discussion.  Vigor explicitly states that it grants TEMPORARY HITPOINTS which the rule clearly state are lost first; I have a hard time finding anything that directly grants hitpoint that doesn't explicitly say it grants temporary hitpoints.

What is a permanent MG?  I believe I have answered the question on what I think would happen to a permanent magic item that has been damaged and then "dispelled" and it varies.  If you want to say that a supressed magic item becomes completely mundane then I will say the damage can cause the item to fall apart as there is no magic holding it together anymore.  While it may not be the Rule As Written I'm more inclided to allow a surpressed magic item to retain its hitpoints that it would be at were the magic not being surpressed.

Now on to other things and another big old Wall of Text.

...
then the weapon have +((X)(2)) hardness and +((X)(10)) HP WHILE have enhancement of X

Interesting...  I see nothing about "temporary" hitpoints there so I assume the +10X hitpoints while it has a +X enhancement is just like the CONmodifierxLevel hitpoints most creatures get while they have a given CON score.

now craft only repair the mundane part of the magical weapon while you need repair damage spells to repair the other damage in the wepon then is probably that a magical protective force encloses the weapon and can be damaged too then when you go to a permanet magical weapon to be repaired the mage only need to repair the magical force because the mundane part be unharmed

as example your weapon with 20+40 Hps was damaged for 39 and the all the damages disrupt almost all the magical protective force of the weapon and in the case of a powerfull permanet wepon with 30 damages that is dispelled only destroy the magical protective force of the weapon and making it mundane

 Finally!!  The little problem here is that there is nothing that says you need to be able to work any kind of magic to repair a magic item.  I also don't remember seeing a system where a spellcaster can "repair magic" which you imply needs to be done.

and now here come other question, what happen whit a permanet magical weapon is dispelled???
the rules say that a dispelled weapon lose all, now if you permanet magical weapon +4 take 10 damages and have 60 HP and is dispelled and return to 20 mundane HP when return her magical power the weapon gain again 40 HP and become full??? or in the couter part the mundane part take the damage first??? and the magical protective force holds together the weapon destroyed???? then all can see your weapon totally breaken and say is time to dispell magic.

the more correct is doing a damage equivalence between the magical and the mundane

as example in your weapon if the magic goes her current Hit poins will be 7 (35%)

Here I believe the RAW is that if you lose the enhancement you lose all the hitpoints that enhancement provides.  This means that if your +4 weapon is dispelled (+0 enhancement bonus) it effectively takes 40 points of damage from that and if it had previously taken damage it may fall apart.  I will say that is ever consistent with how magic is portrayed in many settings; a powerful magic item may be weakened by physical attacks but when the magic that binds the item is disrupted the whole thing falls apart.  This make a lot more sense then saying the item just becomes a mundane item that may be completely undamaged and is FAR easier then trying to track two seperate hitpoint totals for a given item.

1- the rules say that the items HP is based in her material and size ONLY

2- the rules say that an item with magical enhancement add more HP and hardness based in the enhancement bonus to the item and a dispelled weapon don't have ANY then don't have the extra HP and hardness as you say.

3- the craft skill and the craft magical weapons and armors feat.

4-No rule say that a object can take damage in this way the only rule in D&D say that something like this say that this only happens with a CON boost and in this case don't exist it, the rules say too that all other things are temporal HP but this rules is for creatures not objects but again you are saying that if you have a damaged weapon all person maybe see a destroyed sword holds together with magic only

5-how you repair a magic weapon with 70 of HP, an enhancement bonus of +5 and 69 damages without magic???

Nov 6, 2012 -- 4:30PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 6, 2012 -- 3:36PM, Oma012 wrote:

 1- the rules say that the items HP is based in her material and size ONLY

2- the rules say that an item with magical enhancement add more HP and hardness based in the enhancement bonus to the item and a dispelled weapon don't have ANY then don't have the extra HP and hardness as you say.

3- the craft skill and the craft magical weapons and armors feat.

4-No rule say that a object can take damage in this way the only rule in D&D say that something like this say that this only happens with a CON boost and in this case don't exist it, the rules say too that all other things are temporal HP but this rules is for creatures not objects but again you are saying that if you have a damaged weapon all person maybe see a destroyed sword holds together with magic only

5-how you repair a magic weapon with 70 of HP, an enhancement bonus of +5 and 69 damages without magic???

1.  Then why would magic change an item's hitpoints?  Could it be because the magic some how makes the material more resilient but when the magic leaves so does all that added duribility?

2.  Haven't I already agreed that the RAW would have an item stripped of all magic enhancement lose its extra hardness and hitpoints?

3.  What is this regarding?  How you need the craft skill (or something to replicate that) to make an item to enchant and then how you would need the craft feat to enhance the item?  Looking a the craft skill it looks to me like it should easily be able to repair a damaged item.  Looking at the Craft Magic Arms And Armor feat I see that it can be used to "mend a broken item if it is one you could make."  I'll just point out that a "broken" item doesn't function while a "damaged" item will still work at 100% until it too becomes broken.

4.  Who said the object is taking damage when the enhancement is removed?  I may have said it is effectively taking damage but that is because I'm just removing the extra hitpoint the enhancement provided.  With no enhancement there are no hitpoints so they are removed.  It is just like a when a creature's CON score drops; it doesn't actually take damage but because of the lost CON it effectively looks like it's taken damage because now it has fewer hitpoints.

5.  You would use the Craft skill.  Most likely you'll be targetting DC 20 for the masterwork component.  I'm sure we can argue about the cost of the repair (one fifth the underlying item or one fifth of the market value) and the time it takes but it is clear to me that the craft skill is all you would need to repair a damaged item.  If the item is actually broken then you would need the Craft feat to restore the item. 

1- ok now you are saying that if a magical weapon +5 and 20 HPs take 19 damages and is dispelled then the weapon only stay in 1 HP and maybe look almost destroyed and then when recover the magic the weapon auto repair itself???

2-you was saying that you think that the weapon should remain with her extra HP while dispelled.

3- The craft skill can't make magic weapons then can't be used to repair the magic weapon only the mundane weapon, Craft Magica Arms and Armor only repair fully broken weapons, repair damage spells only cure Constructs.

4- again the rules say that while the weapon have enhancement bonus the weapon have extra HP and hardness the RC say it about items and the magic never say that need be permanent only if the weapon have it, then objects dont have CON but can have enhansement bonus while are under the effect of a spell or a permanet magic force then this will considered as temporal Hit Poins.

5- Sorry you can't use the craft skill because only repair weapon maded whit this skill and only mundane weapon can be created with craft.

Nov 7, 2012 -- 9:14AM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 7, 2012 -- 8:44AM, Oma012 wrote:

1- ok now you are saying that if a magical weapon +5 and 20 HPs take 19 damages and is dispelled then the weapon only stay in 1 HP and maybe look almost destroyed and then when recover the magic the weapon auto repair itself???

2-you was saying that you think that the weapon should remain with her extra HP while dispelled.

3- The craft skill can't make magic weapons then can't be used to repair the magic weapon only the mundane weapon, Craft Magica Arms and Armor only repair fully broken weapons, repair damage spells only cure Constructs.

4- again the rules say that while the weapon have enhancement bonus the weapon have extra HP and hardness the RC say it about items and the magic never say that need be permanent only if the weapon have it, then objects dont have CON but can have enhansement bonus while are under the effect of a spell or a permanet magic force then this will considered as temporal Hit Poins.

5- Sorry you can't use the craft skill because only repair weapon maded whit this skill and only mundane weapon can be created with craft.

1.  Don't see where this is coming from unless it is a new set of questions.  I view a magic weapon as being built or imbued with some magically enhanced material; this is why you get the additional hardness and hitpoints.  If that magic is removed then all of those added properties are also removed.

I'll also say that if your +5 weapon only has 20 hitpoint is doesn't need to take anymore damage to fall apart if it loses it's +5.  Remove the +5 and you remove 50 hitpoints as well which is more then enough to destroy the item.

2.  I believe the RAW is that the hp and hardness go when the enchantment goes. The "nice guy" in me may allow a surpressed item to keep the hp as the enhancement automatically comes back after the surpression ends.  Giving the way this is going I'm leaning further away from that.

3.  You're right, the craft skill does not make magic weapons.  Actually I think everything it that may be correct.  The little problem is that if craft can't repair a magic item and someone with Craft Magic Armor or Weapons can only rebuild a broken item then there is no way to repair a magic item that has been damaged.

4.    What are you trying to say and what is the RC?  I don't see where you're coming from.  The rules say a magic weapon gets extra hp and hardness based on the degree of the enhancement.  It only makes sense that if the enhancement it lost those extras also have to be paid back.  If the extra hp don't need to be paid back then why must the item's hitpoint fall back to mundane levels when the enhancement is lost?  Does this also mean that if I cast Magic Weapon on a badly damage item it will restore 10 hitpoints to it and if the total is still less then the maximum they will stay after the spell ends?  To put it another way if my mundane Heavy Mace is at 10 hp from its undamage 20 hp and I cast Magic Weapon on it does that spell repair my item by leaving hp behind after the spell ends?

5.   Really?  So what does this line from the craft skill mean?

Repairing Items

Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price.

The craft skill may not be used to enhance the item but it was certainly used to make the item.
 

1- sorry but is only a mundane weapon with an unknow change in her properties but again this will work like a CON but the item Dont have CON or Temporal HP but Temporal HP can't be replenishment

2- ¬¬

3-is a mystery but i remember a spell like mending but more powerful that repair item but i don't remember it maybe is the only way or make INT your weapon and make it susceptible to Repair damage Spells.

4- Rules Compendium talk about Objects and Magic

5- Sorry but the craft make the mundane item not the Magical Item and while magic the craft can't repair it, remember that the weapon is trasmuted.