Community

Dec 11, 2012 -- 12:10PM, MrCustomer wrote:

The Damage type is still Acid Damage Oma, you are arguing the rules on how it hits the target, but the end result is the flask breaks, splashes the target for 1d6 acid damage.

You are just dancing around the rules to obfuscate an irrelevant point. Using it as a weapon does not change it's DAMAGE TYPE.

Thrown, used as a club, opened and poured over you in your sleep. It deals 1d6 Acid Damage and that is all that is relevant     

yes at the same that a damage can be Bludgeoning this type of damage is Acid??? and what???

what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage??? then all Bludgeoning damage are applying in the same way or slashing or pircing??? then if you use Ice Storm you need roll an attack for the Piercing damage or if yuu do a hold in a grapple you need make and attack to deal the bludgeoning damage??

the Acid effect not is about the Damage Type is about how do the damage and in what situation.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 12:27PM, Oma012 wrote:

what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage???

The ruleset you keep refering to is how to use a Ranged Attack, or rather a Thrown Splash Weapon, which in turn does a Damage Type. Acid Damage is an Energy Type, specifically Energy: Acid. This means Energy resistance:Acid will stop a flask of Acid from doing damage.

You can keep dancing in circles to obfuscate this point, but it is acid damage, how it hits the target isn't relevant. The Longbow shot's arrows as a Ranged Attack, that doesn't change how arrows inflict Piercing Damage. Nor Does a Dagger used as a Ranged Thrown Weapon change how it's damage is dealt.

It deals damage in the form of an Acid Effect, which falls under the rules of Acid effects.

1d6 Acid Effect, done instantly. You keep dancing around disagreeing with this, while saying this is how it works.


Oma, Yes or No?

Does an Acid Flask do 1d6 Acid Damage instantly?

Dec 11, 2012 -- 1:07PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Dec 11, 2012 -- 12:27PM, Oma012 wrote:

what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage???

The ruleset you keep refering to is how to use a Ranged Attack, or rather a Thrown Splash Weapon, which in turn does a Damage Type. Acid Damage is an Energy Type, specifically Energy: Acid. This means Energy resistance:Acid will stop a flask of Acid from doing damage.

You can keep dancing in circles to obfuscate this point, but it is acid damage, how it hits the target isn't relevant. The Longbow shot's arrows as a Ranged Attack, that doesn't change how arrows inflict Piercing Damage. Nor Does a Dagger used as a Ranged Thrown Weapon change how it's damage is dealt.

It deals damage in the form of an Acid Effect, which falls under the rules of Acid effects.

1d6 Acid Effect, done instantly. You keep dancing around disagreeing with this, while saying this is how it works.


Oma, Yes or No?

Does an Acid Flask do 1d6 Acid Damage instantly?

ok what say the rule set of weapon about the Rapier???

the rapier deal 1d6 of piercing damage

What say the rule set of Weapon about the Acid

A acid flask deal 1d6 of acid damage

An Acid attack deal damage like any other weapon Instantly as described in the rule Set.

An Acid effect come in play if someone don't is attacked with acid but interact with him, and as described the Acid Effect not are instant effect.

so you are saying it is an instant effect, but it isn't an instant effect? That is rather conlficting, confusing  

You are dancing in circles trying to obfuscate the fact that Acid Damage is an Acid Effect.

Walk up to your pit of acid, the one that does 10d6 damage with fill a flask.

You now have a flask of acid.

Flask of acid does 1d6 Acid Damage. What type of damage? You know to over come DR and resistances etc?

Damage Type, Energy: Acid, It's as simple as that.

Page 48 of the rules Compendium under

Energy

Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according o the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses that energy


It's important to note that it is an Energy effect because that determines that it is affected by things like Acid Immunity, Energy Resistance or Acid Vulnerability. A physical attack such as Piercing damage can't be resisted, it is covered with Damage Reduction.

Dance around and try to obfuscate it all you want, but it is Acid, the same acid in your pit and it follows these rules. The Flask is an Acid Effect

That this is an acid effect that deals the damage instantly, it proves that an instant of exposure counts as a round of exposure, and therefore the damage is dealt instantly, up front at the start of the effect (or upon initial exposure)

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.

The language in the DMG was meant to show how much damage is dealt, not when it occurs during a round (which is arbitrary and variable).

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

And this works well in the game, If I am bull rushed on the enemies turn and pushed into a vat of acid, I take Acid damage, I cast teleport as a swift action on my turn and am out of the acid.

I've only been in the acid for 1 second, but it counts as a round.

And that's the point, it doesn't matter if I've been in the acid for an entire round, if I was in half the round, if I was only in for a brief moment, it counts as a round and I take the 10d6 damage.

You take the initial damage, and if you're still in the acid when the enemy's turn comes around again, you take the next dose of damage since that's when it was triggered.  The amount of time you actually spent in the acid is irrelevant in this case, since it's not applying on your turn.

Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions).  If the acid effectively has its own turn before/after everyone in the initiative, or if an enemy starts the acid damage by pushing you in on their own turn, there's no connection to the victim's actions.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

When any length of exposure deals the same damage, even an instant exposure, then the only consistant way is to deal the damage at the start of exposure, and the beginning of the round (since you  may not be in the acid the entire round)

If you're dealt the same damage regardless of the exposure time, it makes no difference when you decide to apply it during the turn.

The consistent way to apply the damage is at the start of the exposure and at the exact same time 1 round later, since the damage is dealt per-round.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

To which the Effects rule takes place. Acid deals damage per round, meaning exposure to acid deals 1 round of the acid effect, so the initial Acid Effect ends just before the beginning of the next round on the same Initiative.

That's true for acid effects that last for a certain number of rounds, but not for an acid pit.  Pits of acid don't have a specific duration.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

You've taken the initial damage and won't take any more for that round. At the start of the next round you are subject to the acid damage again.

Well, one round later anyway.  It's unlikely to be at the start of a turn unless you mean an entire round if you fell in the acid before entering initiative (in which case the acid effectively has its own turn at the start/end of each round of initiative), since it probably wasn't triggered at the start of a round.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

-If you take damage at the start of exposure (when you fall in) on the first round, you should take damage at the start of exposure on subsequent rounds

True, but later rounds of exposure only start at the beginning of your own turn in the initiative if that's when the effect triggered in the first place.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

-The Concentration Check rule would require damage to be rolled at the start of the round in order to determine the DC for checks during that round.

Since it's always based on the last amount of damage dealt, there's absolutely no requirement that it be rolled at the start of the round.  You will always have taken some previous damage if you're suffering continuous damage, and if you haven't come to the right point to deal that damage again, all it means is that the damage from the previous roll is still being used.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

And the final round of an effect in the concentration rules also indicates that such damage would be resolved at the start of a round.

Again, it's based on whether or not the last damage dealt was the last amount that could be dealt, but whether or not that occurred in your own current turn is irrelevant.  If it was applied on an enemy's turn, it works just as well using the damage that was rolled then.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

-Flash Effect deals same damage as half a round of exposure and the same as prolonged exposure for an entire round, so the only consistant time to roll damage is at the start of exposure and at the start of a round of exposure.

That's mostly true (except during your own turn, when the possibility exists for it to be spread out), but the start of a round of exposure is rarely going to coincide with the start of your own turn in the initiative.  If initial exposure occurs outside of your turn in the initiative, then each subsequent round of exposure also starts outside of your turn.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 8:58AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Nowhere does it say under the rukles that the number of rounds an effect lasts has to be pre-determined. In this case it lasts a number of rounds until you are removed from the effect. Leaving the acid would make that the final round.

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

The number of rounds has to be certain in order for it to be classified as ending just before the same initiative count.  There is no way to tell with any kind of certainty when you will escape a pit of acid (unlike a spell with a predetermined duration).  This is also true when  determining whether or not the last damage dealt is the last damage the effect could deal.

In both cases, you cannot predetermine the end of the effect (you could always end up spending longer in the acid than you thought); the only way to know is to successfully escape, so any damage dealt before that point does not last a number of rounds that is known with certainty, and cannot be determined to be the last amount of damage that the effect could deal.

Effects that don't run out on their own work as if they will continue forever, because they might do just that.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 11:01PM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.

The language in the DMG was meant to show how much damage is dealt, not when it occurs during a round (which is arbitrary and variable).

When Hit with a Acid Sword or Flask of Acid the damage is dealt instantly, upon exposure. The "counts as a round" was meant simply to indicate this so that Instant Acid Effects from weapons, Breath Weapons, Spells it instant effects would not be confused.

Brief Exposure (being dipped into the acid only half a round or less) and Instant exposure Counts as a round of exposure. 

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:13AM, MrCustomer wrote:

You take the initial damage, and if you're still in the acid when the enemy's turn comes around again, you take the next dose of damage since that's when it was triggered.  The amount of time you actually spent in the acid is irrelevant in this case, since it's not applying on your turn.

That is exactly what I stated.  Damage is taken once per round while in the acid, emmediately upon exposure. So instant damage when you initially fall in and then again at the start of each round in the same initiative.


It works the same no matter what turn you fall into the acid, so long as you take the damage at the start of the same turn next round.  

Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions). 

The rules should be consistant, no matter what turn it is dealt on. Many things will change the state of the target between turns. Another person's actions could rescue the character, the character in the acid could be Readying an Action.

The Rule needs to work the same in each and every case.

If the acid effectively has its own turn before/after everyone in the initiative, or if an enemy starts the acid damage by pushing you in on their own turn, there's no connection to the victim's actions.

Consistancy and other actions, such as Ready an Action. Pits of acid aren't the only case, so consistancy is the rules is important. They always function the same way.

Also in the case of a trap, that a person walks into before initiative was rolled, it is retroactive. Initiative should have started when they were in range of interacting with the trap with the players as Unaware. So initiative shoudl be applied retroactively. It is pretty obvious that the player who walked into a trap did so on his own turn.

  If you're dealt the same damage regardless of the exposure time, it makes no difference when you decide to apply it during the turn.

Yes it does, because it effects your subsequent actions. If the acid kills you then you aren't going to be able to get out of the pool and walk about. If the damage is the saem, regardless of the time of exposure, then you need to front load it for that reason.

"the orc swings his greataxe, knocking your head right off your shoulders, ok you are dead, so what are you going to do?"
"well, first I am going to go pick up my head and put it in a bag, then I am going to find a spot to lay down so I am out of everyone's way, don't supose I can get an attack off first?"

Also being in the acid doesn't stop the enemy from attacking you in some way, like shooting arrows, etc. So it needs to be resolved in a consistant way. With an unknown duration the only consistant way is to deal it at the start of a round on the same initiative it began"     

That's true for acid effects that last for a certain number of rounds, but not for an acid pit.  Pits of acid don't have a specific duration.

Being exposed to acid deals 1 round of damage, it's a misdenomer  to suggest that it isn't a fixed duration and therefore doesn't fall under the Effect rules.

If you fall into acid you take damage for 1 round, that round ends just before the beginning of the subsequent round.  That is a fixed duration of 1 round. On the next round, if you are still in the acid, then you take 1 round of damage (also a fixed duration)

While being in the acid is not a fixed duration, the resulting effect (damage) is a fixed 1-round duration.

Also if you wish to argue that there is no duration, then that makes the acid an instant effect under every situation, You will note that it doesn't say "acid deals damage as a full round action" I don't mean to argue this, but you are saying it one full round duration, while saying it doesn't have a duration.

Well, one round later anyway.  It's unlikely to be at the start of a turn unless you mean an entire round if you fell in the acid before entering initiative (in which case the acid effectively has its own turn at the start/end of each round of initiative), since it probably wasn't triggered at the start of a round.

Again, initiative should be retroactively applied, Objects don't get initiative. The DM should start initiative with the player falling into the trap as being the first turn of the first round.

That is why you only get 1 action in a suprise round, because you are halfway through a turn ussually. ie Walk into a room (move action) and see some goblins, suprise round occurs and you take your remaining action for that round.

Character  walks into an acid trap (move action) and triggers it, roll initiative and complete the second half of that turn. This is a suprise round as the players who's initiative were before his are treated as unaware. Now normally I wouldn't use initiative for something like this outside of combat, i would simply give all the other characters in his party a turn before his in no particular order since they can delay their turn anyways, and this amounts to the same thing (everyone gets a turn in between each of your turns) Initiative is only needed if there is an anemy present.

Either way, having the Damage occur (outside of initiative) is a nonsensical arguement, it should be tied to the action/turn that triggered it.  ie you walked into it, it's your action/turn

True, but later rounds of exposure only start at the beginning of your own turn in the initiative if that's when the effect triggered in the first place.

We both agree on this, as I am talking of a trap I am simply assuming that the victem was the one who triggered it.
 
 

Since it's always based on the last amount of damage dealt, there's absolutely no requirement that it be rolled at the start of the round.  You will always have taken some previous damage if you're suffering continuous damage, and if you haven't come to the right point to deal that damage again, all it means is that the damage from the previous roll is still being used.

I will strongly disagree, all effects/results of the previous round are finished at the end of that round. You also have the damage from one round effecting 2 complete rounds, and that is patently absurd. This is no different then saying, well you got hit by a sword on the previous turn, so you need to make a concentration check.

You only make a concentration check for damage that occurs on the same round you cast the spell on. The rules are clear on this too.

Again, it's based on whether or not the last damage dealt was the last amount that could be dealt, but whether or not that occurred in your own current turn is irrelevant.  If it was applied on an enemy's turn, it works just as well using the damage that was rolled then.

Again, the rules must be consistant, it works the same regardless of who's turn it is done on. If it is the enemy's turn what if I counterspell him? No I am casting a spell halfway through his turn, so when the damage is resolved on his turn is important. The same goes if he wants to target a spell on me, he needs to determine the result of the damage on me if it will effect the spell he is casting.

ie Magic Missile won't target a dead person, so the enemy should be given a chance to hit a different target if I am already dead.

That's mostly true (except during your own turn, when the possibility exists for it to be spread out), but the start of a round of exposure is rarely going to coincide with the start of your own turn in the initiative.  If initial exposure occurs outside of your turn in the initiative, then each subsequent round of exposure also starts outside of your turn.

It still must be resolved the same way each and every time, regardless of who's turn it occurs on because it can effect the actions of others, if the character is a legitimate target of spells, if the character has readied an action, etc as mentioned above. The rule needs to be consistant.
 
 

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

The number of rounds has to be certain in order for it to be classified as ending just before the same initiative count.  There is no way to tell with any kind of certainty when you will escape a pit of acid (unlike a spell with a predetermined duration).  This is also true when  determining whether or not the last damage dealt is the last damage the effect could deal.

Spells and other effects can be ended prematurely too, They can be dispelled, overwritten, Cured, supressed in antimagic fields or in some cases voluntarily removed on will.

There are to points of certainty, one that exposure to acid deals damage per round, which is 1 round of effect if the target is in the acid. That would end just before the begining of the next round. At the beginning of the new round you would determine if they were still in the acid, if they are, you would do the process again, just as you would if this was the first time they fell into the acid.

It doesn't require a duration beyond "exposure does a round of damage" If you are exposed to acid then you take damage from that acid for that round. If you are exposed again on the next round you will take damage just like you did the round before. Regardless of when you are exposed in the following round. You could start in the acid, or you could fall back into the acid.

All that needs to be determined is the end of the round in which you were exposed.

You aren't taking damage because of an effect, you are taking damage because you are in the acid at the beginning of a round. It's a new round so falling into the acid is the same as starting in the acid.

-My turn I leap into the acid, take 10d6 damage and then climb out, My next turn I leap into the acid and take 10d6 damage and then climb out.

-My turn I fall into the acid, take 10d6 damage and fail my swim check, My next turn I am still in the acid so I take 10d6 damage.

-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I fail my swim check and stay in, on the orc's next turn I am in the acid I take 10d6 damage

-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I make my swim check and climb out, on the orc's next turn he bull rushes me into the acid again, I take 10d6 damage

It is a new round, so any time that I am exposed to the acid, for whatever reason, at whatever time, I will take damage from that exposure upon being exposed.
  

In both cases, you cannot predetermine the end of the effect (you could always end up spending longer in the acid than you thought)

All the matters is when the effect begins, that is when you take the damage, just as when you fall into the acid. The fact that you can't pre-determine how long you will be in the acid just furthers the need to take the damage up front.

The Start of exposure is the only thing that isn't a variable. Initial exposure and the beginning of a round are the only 2 times where it is not a variable. So applying damage at those times is the only way to be consistant.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 6:05PM, MrCustomer wrote:

so you are saying it is an instant effect, but it isn't an instant effect? That is rather conlficting, confusing  

You are dancing in circles trying to obfuscate the fact that Acid Damage is an Acid Effect.

Walk up to your pit of acid, the one that does 10d6 damage with fill a flask.

You now have a flask of acid.

Flask of acid does 1d6 Acid Damage. What type of damage? You know to over come DR and resistances etc?

Damage Type, Energy: Acid, It's as simple as that.

Page 48 of the rules Compendium under

Energy

Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according o the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses that energy


It's important to note that it is an Energy effect because that determines that it is affected by things like Acid Immunity, Energy Resistance or Acid Vulnerability. A physical attack such as Piercing damage can't be resisted, it is covered with Damage Reduction.

Dance around and try to obfuscate it all you want, but it is Acid, the same acid in your pit and it follows these rules. The Flask is an Acid Effect

That this is an acid effect that deals the damage instantly, it proves that an instant of exposure counts as a round of exposure, and therefore the damage is dealt instantly, up front at the start of the effect (or upon initial exposure)

Again one attack have her own rule set but the exposure come in play when you don't are attaked.

again what have to do the damage type with this????

this about when the damage are doing no matter if are fire damage, Bludgeoning damage or acid damage.

Then under the rules if some one attack you with acid you take the damage like if someone attack you with a sword but the type of the damage is Acid and under the rule if you are exposed to the acid you take damage per round and if the amount of acid is significant in relation to your size you need make a Fortitude save again poison.

a fine creature around to an open acid flask need make a Fortitude save and if he try to put her hand in the acid he take 1d6 per round but if he only put her hand and immediately get it out the fine creature dont take any damage but in otherwise if a fine creature are attaked for an acid flask she take 1d6 damages but don't make a fortitude save again poison.

Again Oma, you are saying "it isn't an Acid effect, but it is an acid effect"

It is Acid, it does Acid Damage, all the appropriate effects of acid apply, including immunity and Energy Resistance and Invulnerability. A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.

I am pointing out that these effects "count as a round of exposure" meaning nothing more then they do the damage instantly!

There are no new rules, no "different set of rules" Acid Imunity, Resistance and Vulnerability works the same on a flask of acid as it does a pool of acid, the damage is handled in the exact same way.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 9:18AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Again Oma, you are saying "it isn't an Acid effect, but it is an acid effect"

It is Acid, it does Acid Damage, all the appropriate effects of acid apply, including immunity and Energy Resistance and Invulnerability. A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.

I am pointing out that these effects "count as a round of exposure" meaning nothing more then they do the damage instantly!

There are no new rules, no "different set of rules" Acid Imunity, Resistance and Vulnerability works the same on a flask of acid as it does a pool of acid, the damage is handled in the exact same way.

Sorry again the rule set of attacks and exposure are no longer the same.

As described the acid deal 1d6 of damage in her weapon entry.

Again if you have DR 50/ piercing no matter if you fail a reflex save, if you are beaten , if you fall from too high or if you are grappled, you take less damage of all kinds of non-piercing damage

The same way no matter how you take acid damage if you are immunity you dont take the damage.

Again the type of the damage dont have to do with the rule set to how apply the damage.

Under the rule if you use a flask of acid again a fine creature that creature don't need make a fortitude save again poison.

Under the rules if a Fine  creature put her hand in an acid flask she don't take damage until a round of exposure.

As example some one can play with a firestone because unless you hold it you don't take instand damage but if someone use it as a weapon it deal fire damage.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 9:33AM, Oma012 wrote:

Sorry again the rule set of attacks and exposure are no longer the same.

As described the acid deal 1d6 of damage in her weapon entry.

Acually, as described an Acid (flask) deals 1d6 Acid Damage, the damage is an Acid Effect

Again if you have DR 50/ piercing no matter if you fail a reflex save, if you are beaten , if you fall from too high or if you are grappled, you take less damage of all kinds of non-piercing damage

The same way no matter how you take acid damage if you are immunity you dont take the damage.

You need to read up on the difference between Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance. Clearly you don't understand if we are talking of Energy Damage and you are talking about Damage Reduction, and clearly you do not understand Damage Reduction from your above sentenct

Again the type of the damage dont have to do with the rule set to how apply the damage.

uhhhhhh. it has EVERYTHING to do with how you apply the damage. You realize that if I toss an Acid Flask as someone with DR 50/piercing that they will take full damage from the acid? You realise that DR doesn't stop Energy Damage, Spells and Supernatural abilities

You have demonstrated just how completely out of touch you are with the rules of the game here.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 7:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

When Hit with a Acid Sword or Flask of Acid the damage is dealt instantly, upon exposure. The "counts as a round" was meant simply to indicate this so that Instant Acid Effects from weapons, Breath Weapons, Spells it instant effects would not be confused.

That would be largely useless, since those effects for weapons, breath weapons, spells, and so forth have absolutely no need to refer to the DMG's section on environmental acid effects.  All it would do is confuse the issue of whether or not you can take damage from them more than once per round.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 7:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions). 

The rules should be consistant, no matter what turn it is dealt on. Many things will change the state of the target between turns. Another person's actions could rescue the character, the character in the acid could be Readying an Action.

The Rule needs to work the same in each and every case.

No, they don't.  It's entirely consistent for the rules to behave differently to accomodate different circumstances.  Even in the acid effects section, you've got a different amount of damage dealt by different levels of exposure, and a poisonous fumes effect that only applies when large bodies of acid are present.

It's true that other effects could apply during other turns, and you could certainly make the argument for also spreading the damage out a bit on those turns if the acid was dealt during that turn and if it makes any difference to the victim.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 7:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Consistancy and other actions, such as Ready an Action. Pits of acid aren't the only case, so consistancy is the rules is important. They always function the same way.

Consistency is important, but it means that the result should be consistent with the effect, not that all effects should be treated as identical.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 7:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Also in the case of a trap, that a person walks into before initiative was rolled, it is retroactive. Initiative should have started when they were in range of interacting with the trap with the players as Unaware. So initiative shoudl be applied retroactively. It is pretty obvious that the player who walked into a trap did so on his own turn.

Outside of an initiative order, turns have no meaning and everyone acts at the same time (mechanically), so the player walking into the trap was also doing so on everyone else's turn.

If you want to treat the initiative as having started (which doesn't happen if everyone is unaware) then you'd have to give the trap an initiative anyway, and since it's obvious that it acts before everyone else and doesn't have a sound method for rolling initiative simply putting it at the start or end of the initiative order fits nicely with the actual effect (either the start of initiative before everyone else, or at the end after everyone else; the result is the same).

Conveniently, it also sidesteps any problems with the application time for that kind of case since the damage is entirely applied during a "turn" when no-one can do anything anyway.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 7:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Yes it does, because it effects your subsequent actions. If the acid kills you then you aren't going to be able to get out of the pool and walk about. If the damage is the saem, regardless of the time of exposure, then you need to front load it for that reason.

No, because you could just as easily claim that as the reason to apply it later on, since they would have the opportunity to take actions while being burnt by the acid.

As above, you can just as easily apply it later and it's just as consistent.  In fact, it's less consistent to apply damage if you don't know how long you've been the victim of it, since applying it at the start of a turn forces you to be retroactive if you need to adjust for the circumstances.

The section on effects refers to the duration of the effect, not how often it deals damage (which is similar for any kind of ongoing effect).

If you were to try treating it as an effect with a 1 round duration, you'd never need to make a Concentration check against it, since it would always have dealt the last round of damage.  Since that same damage-once-per-round argument also applies to any effect that lasts multiple rounds, you'd never have to make checks to resist continuous damage.

The pit of acid is an ongoing effect with an nonspecific duration that can last multiple rounds (you're exposed to acid for multiple continuous rounds).  Trying to split its damage into convenient 1-round blocks so that you can claim it has a fixed duration is disingenuous.

It has a duration, just not one that lasts a certain number of rounds; the number of rounds which it will last is uncertain (unlike typical spell effects which automatically run out at a certain point).

How can it be initiative if no-one is ready to act?  Initiative doesn't begin until someone can take actions (since it's pointless otherwise).

It makes much more sense in this case to place the trap's effect in the initiative order at the beginning or end (even if it can't roll initiative).  The effect applies at the correct time relative to everyone's actions, and the victim gets the appropriate 1 round of time to respond to the unexpected exposure before suffering the second round of effect.

By that logic, the goblins would get a full round of actions during the surprise round since they haven't acted yet and thus have all their actions available.

Except that in that case, you wouldn't get to act in the surprise round at all, since you were one of the creatures surprised, and if the goblins weren't expecting you, there is no surprise round.  Both situations that make no sense if the argument for taking a single action in the surprise round is that you're halfway through a turn.

It can't be tied to an action in the initiative (including the victim's action), since initiative hadn't started at that point.

Functionally, even if you don't actually use initiative (though it's the best mechanic for it) your outcome should involve everyone getting a full round of actions before the second application of damage from the trap.  The victim isn't any different from his companions in this case, since he wasn't performing any more or less activity than they were; all of them were walking together simultaneously, without the mechanics of initiative forcing them to act one after another.

The difference we have is on where the trap is placed in the initiative order based on that victim's triggering of it.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that it occurs at the start of the victim's turn, and giving it its own place in the initiative order is consistent with its behaviour relative to the actions of the victim and his companions.
 

No, you have the effect that began on a particular turn crossing over another turn (since the effect only ends just before it gets back to its own starting turn).  It doesn't last for additional rounds, it just overlaps with multiple turns, which is consistent with the fact that the effect doesn't end until just before its own turn occurs again.

However, a round isn't the same thing as a turn.  You can take continuous damage for effects that started before your own turn and that end after your turn (just before they reach their own starting turn in the initiative order again), and it's still within the same round as far as that effect is concerned.

Of course he does, but that doesn't make any difference to determining whether or not the last damage that an effect dealt was the last damage it was capable of dealing.  It will be the last application of damage no matter when it occurs.

If the enemy initially strikes you with a continuous damage effect on your turn, by the time it gets back to your turn the only difference the exact timing makes is to which dose of damage you use for setting the Concentration DC.  If he initially hit you at a later point in your turn than your spellcasting, you'll simply be using the earlier dose rather than the later one.

I agree that this is a reasonable argument for extending the potential distribution of the damage across the turn to other turns in which it might make a difference.

Indeed they can, but they also have a specific duration, and we're only concerned with when the effect with definitely end, since that's how we typically determine whether or not it's on the last round of its effect.  If someone has ended the effect through additional interference (dispelling a spell, teleporting someone out of an acid pit, and so on), we'll already know that the effect has dealt its last application of damage and that no further Concentration checks against it are necessary.

Yes,  the only real difference it makes is whether or not the damage is counted as continuous at all (and when it applies, in that case).  If you stay in the acid from one round into the next, it's continuous damage and applies whenever you were initially exposed.  If you climb out in the middle, it's not continuous damage (even if it ends up dealing the same amount) but likewise applies at the exposure time.

Applying damage at the beginning of a turn would be inconsistent if your initial exposure wasn't at the beginning of a turn.  Changing the exposure time is inconsistent; compare the two possibilities we're considering.

• You take damage upon exposure, and 1 round later at the time of the exposure.
• You take damage upon exposure, and at the start of the next turn.

In the former case, the damage always applies at the exposure time, which is a consistent way to apply damage once-per-round.  The latter involves applying damage at a point which will sometimes be one round later, but often will not; that's inconsistent, since it changes the timing of the damage application.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 5:49PM, MrCustomer wrote:

You realise that DR doesn't stop Energy Damage, Spells and Supernatural abilities

You have demonstrated just how completely out of touch you are with the rules of the game here.

I'd give Oma the benefit of the doubt on that, and assume from context that "non-piercing" was meant as "bludgeoning or slashing" not something inclusive of all damage types, since none of the examples given applied energy damage against damage reduction (and applying damage reduction against other physical damage types even when they're not actually weapons is a common house rule).

Dec 12, 2012 -- 9:18AM, MrCustomer wrote:

A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.

I prefer to skip pointing out that you suggested shoving a cat-sized object (Tiny) into a flask that typically contains no more than 1 pound of liquid (and probably less, since the flask weighs something too), but what I'm trying to say is that we should give the benefit of the doubt on potential errors in description.  For example, I'm assuming that you meant to say "Fine", rather than "Tiny".

We may disagree on points, but we don't have to be intolerant of the failings that we all have from time to time.

Thats the thing Slagger, I am pretty sure that in Oma-tongue he means to say that DR blocks a Flask of Acid, that is his key point, that it counts as Weapon Damage not Energy Damage. Which is pretty obvious as his intent when he states that damage type has nothing to do with how the damage is applied.

And yes I meant Fine, a Ring, the object I used, is a fine object, not Tiny, lol. The point being that a Fine object that could be immersed in a flask of Acid, it would deal 10d6 Damage per round the same as a medium object in a pit of acid. I also will point out that a tiny object, such as a small metal pot, if the flask was poured into it would take 1d6 damage/round until it melted through.

The point being that the Damage from an Acid Flask is an Acid Effect, and that "counts as a round of exposure" meant nothing more then the damage was instant. The point being that there are no "new rules" regarding Acid Effects or Thrown Splash Weapons.

That would be largely useless, since those effects for weapons, breath weapons, spells, and so forth have absolutely no need to refer to the DMG's section on environmental acid effects.  All it would do is confuse the issue of whether or not you can take damage from them more than once per round.

Which is why they took the statement out, it is a confusing way to say it is an instant effect. Obviously (or at least it should be) a Flask of Acid or Sword could strike different areas of the body, and that Spells, magic Swords and Breath Weapons are magical in nature, not mundane, and so can deal multiple damages.

Although a DM could be inclined to rule a limit of 10 Acid flasks hitting a target as being the point of saturation, that clearly they would be soaked from head to toe so this counts as full immersion. Even so I would be cautious about this because Full Immersion would apply Energy Resistance only once, whereas being hit seperately by 10 seperate flasks would be applied 10 times (Energy Resistance 5 would equal Energy Resistance 50)

No, they don't.  It's entirely consistent for the rules to behave differently to accomodate different circumstances.  Even in the acid effects section, you've got a different amount of damage dealt by different levels of exposure, and a poisonous fumes effect that only applies when large bodies of acid are present.
It's true that other effects could apply during other turns, and you could certainly make the argument for also spreading the damage out a bit on those turns if the acid was dealt during that turn and if it makes any difference to the victim.

You could spread the damage out, but this would be a house rule as there is no ruleset in the game for doing this, certainly not for doing some of the damage each turn. It also confuses the issue of Energy Resistance, so if I decide it is more realistic to deal damage out 2d6 per turn, rather then 10d6 a round, then there is the chance that Resistance could be applied to each of these seperately, as well as bypassing the Massive Damage rule.

And again, it doesn't take a Full-Round of exposure to deal the damage either. Being in the acid for only a Move Action of time is the same as being in the acid for an Full Round, so you can't be consistant in spreading out 10d6 Damage over an indeterminate length of time. 

There is no rule for half or partial damage from being immersed, so there is no way to spread it out when you don't know how long they will be exposed for, and you can't divide the damage with an unknown variable.

Consistency is important, but it means that the result should be consistent with the effect, not that all effects should be treated as identical

The identicle effect should be treated as identicle however. There shouldn't be different rules for the same effect. The Damage should be applied the same regardless of who's turn it is taken on, or if the character falls into it during initiative or before initiative.

Starting a turn in Acid should be treated the same as being pushed into the acid. You are exposed to acid so you take Damage. 

If at any time during a round you are immersed in Acid, either by falling, being pushed in or by starting the round immersed, you take damage.

Dec 12, 2012 -- 5:49PM, MrCustomer wrote:

1- what part say that the damage of a acid flash is Acid Effect, the rule only say Acid Damage.

2- is the same, the point is that the kind of damage not have to do with the form of do it, the example is the Bludgeoning damage and all different forms to do it and at last both are damage only that one is a energy acid damage and the other are Bludgeoning damage.

3-sorry i never say that i was talking about the bludgeoning damage and all the forms to do that, i know that you can't use DR in energy damage as described in Energy damage and Damage reduction but as you can see bludgeoning damage have many rules at the same Acid damage have 2 rule sets as weapon and as non-weapon.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

ok if you are saying that a tiny creature take 10d6 of damage what happen if you use the Acid flask as a weapon again a tiny creature???? take 10d6 of damage???

as described in the rule set (TSW) if you use it as a weapon you deal only 1d6 of damage.

as described in the rule set (AE) if you don't use it as a weapon and in this case the fine creature jump into the acid flask she take 10d6 of damage.

is very easy.

and in this point i think 2 person are agree that a creature need a chance to do her turn in a pool of acid instead of take damage 2 times under the rules.

1: Oma, I already explained it to you. It says under Acid (flask) that it deals 1d6 Acid Damage. Now read the rules for Damage Types, there is a whole page in RC about this. Damage Type: Energy: Acid, that is an Acid Effect.

Know what else also does Acid Damage? the spells, Acid Splash, Acid Fog, Acid Arrow etc, it's all Energy Damage


2: What does the Damage type have to do with this? look up Energy in the Rules Compendium and read the first paragraph on page 48, it covers the nature of energy damage. This is why an Acid flask would do full damage to a target with DR 50/piercing, but would do no damage to a target with Resist Energy:Acid 10

3: Acid Damage doesn't have a weapon rule, it's a Damage Type not a Weapon Type. I invite you to read Page 42 of your Rules Compendium:

Blungeoning is under, Damage Type: Weapons ("weapons and natural weapons")

Acid Damage is under, Damage Type: Energy ("Abilities and effects that employ one of the five energytypes deal energy damage, which can be acid, cold, elec-tricity, fire, or sonic") Acid Damage is not Weapon Damage

So when we talk of doing damage with a flask of acid, we are talking about an Acid Effect.

 On the second Comment:

A fine creature immersed in Acid  would take 10d6 Damage. Like a medium creature, it doesn't matter that it is a pit, pond, lake, river, Ocean or a dimension of acid, it only matters that they are immersed.

So a fine object like a ring put in a flask of acid would be dealt 10d6 damagedue to being fully immersed in acid.


If you threw an Acid flask at a fine creature? There is a size adjustment to AC for a reason, an acid flask will splater it's contents over a square and the adjacent squares so in relation to their size the creature will be hit for the same amount fo damage, 1d6.Any adjustment to damage is done with the Size modifier to difficulty to hit.

Note that the entire contents aren't dumped on a medium creature either as much of it splatters in the surrounding squares. The same with a fine creature as the square it is on and the surreounding squares are hit with the splatter.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 10:30AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The point is that if you are saying that a creature swiming a pool of acid in a single turn can't take only 1d6 of damage but you are saying that a fine creature don't take more that 1d6 of damage from a acid flask the you are contradicting yourself because you are saying that both are the same rules then if the rule set from an acid flask is the same that the one from the acid pool why you are saying that if a creature swiming a acid pool take more that 1d6 but a tiny creature damaged for an acid flask only take 1d6????

Then if the tiny creature swim she only take 1d6 ???

here exist 2 rule sets one as weapon and other as non-weapon and both do acid damage, like the examples of the bludgeoning damges.

Again Exist many rule sets to do the same kind of damage.

The rule for the Acid Flask is that deal 1d6 only if you use it as a WEAPON.
The rule for the same Acid Flask as a non-Weapon (exposure) work like Acid Effect dealing damage per round.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 10:42AM, Oma012 wrote:

you are saying that both are the same rules then if the rule set from an acid flask is the same that the one from the acid pool why you are saying that if a creature swiming a acid pool take more that 1d6 but a tiny creature damaged for an acid flask only take 1d6????

What are the rules Oma? Did it say A Medium creature in 10,000 litres of Acid? or did it say simply "in the case of total immersion"


-Take an empty flask, walk up to your pit of 10d6 Acid and fill the flask with it.
-You now have an Acid (flask) that deals 1d6 Acid Damage.
-Now take a Ring (fine Object) and drop it in that flask.
- It is now Totally Immersed, just the same as if you dropped it in the pit of acid. 
- In the case of total immersion it takes 10d6 damage.

-Take the flask and pour it into a metal pot. It is exposed to the acid, but it is not immersed in the acid, so it takes 1d6 Damage per round.   

-Throw a flask of acid at a Fine sized creature. It has a size modifier to AC to avoid being hit or taking damage. The flask smashes and splatters over both the creature and the surrounding squares. Sure the creature takes the brunt of the damage, but the acid is also splashed over 225 square feet (15 by 15)  so it is hardly a case of total immersion, 
    

The rule for the Acid Flask is that deal 1d6 only if you use it as a WEAPON.
The rule for the same Acid Flask as a non-Weapon (exposure) work like Acid Effect dealing damage per round.

A Flask of Acid is just Acid (the same as your pit trap) in a flask. It can be used as a thrown splash weapon, but it doesn't have to be, nor is it meant to be a weapong which is why it isn't listed in the Weapons section.
  
The flask of acid will do 1d6 to the target regardless of the way you apply it (except in the case of full immersion which would only apply to Fine objects) In the case of throwing it, the flask breaks and splashes it's contents over 225 Square feet, it only deals a single round of acid damage in an instant and then is effectively neutralized from being scattered so wide. That is, it counts as a round of exposure.

however if I exposed  an object dirrectly to it, such as pouring it in a pot, it would do 1d6 damage per round, since it isn't scattered to the wind over 225 square feet.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 12:30PM, MrCustomer wrote:

then why you are calling for 50% immersion or 75% immersion for more damage if a fine creature only take 1d6 of damage from an acid flask that is almost the same and unther your point of view is the same rule the attack and the acid effect then why in the case of the swiming person you call for more that 1d6 of damage and for the fine you only call for 1d6 of damage only, and a swiming not is full immersion

Oma, because an object the size of a ring inside a glass of water is totally immersed the same as a person in your pit of acid.

I suggested 50% and 74% immersion because the game lacked rules for volume of acid vs creature size. There is an obvious difference between acid dripping from a cave roof (1d6) and wading waist deep (50%) through a river of acid and being totally immersed swimming across a lake of acid. It would be a reasonable ruling for a DM over a rule that the book doesn't cover.

Swimming shoudl count as full immersion, because the body core, the torso, is fully immersed, also the normal method of swimming requires you to get your head wet. treading slowly with head out of the water would further reduce your movement. Noone Doggy paddles in the Olympics.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 1:15PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, because an object the size of a ring inside a glass of water is totally immersed the same as a person in your pit of acid.

I suggested 50% and 74% immersion because the game lacked rules for volume of acid vs creature size. There is an obvious difference between acid dripping from a cave roof (1d6) and wading waist deep (50%) through a river of acid and being totally immersed swimming across a lake of acid. It would be a reasonable ruling for a DM over a rule that the book doesn't cover.

Swimming shoudl count as full immersion, because the body core, the torso, is fully immersed, also the normal method of swimming requires you to get your head wet. treading slowly with head out of the water would further reduce your movement. Noone Doggy paddles in the Olympics.

1- under your logic a fine creature splashed with 1 acid flask will count as a full immersion because for an instant the full body of the fine crearture was in full immersion and then that fine creature need take 10d6 instead of 1d6

2-Swimming not is full immersion because your back never are in full immersion (in a standard swim)

1- That is something a DM would have to determine depending on context of his game. Myself I would do 1d6 damage and recomend this based on the acid flask shattering and splashing it's content over a 255 square foot area, the creature doesn't necisarily get immersed even if the flask is incidentally larger then him. but under circumstances a DM could rule otherwise.

2-Oma, perhaps you have never swam before, but there is no way of swimming at any reasonable speed without getting wet, the doggy paddle is probabbly the driest way of swimming but the speed is atrocious, No only the gulible are going to go for that

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The point being that the Damage from an Acid Flask is an Acid Effect, and that "counts as a round of exposure" meant nothing more then the damage was instant. The point being that there are no "new rules" regarding Acid Effects or Thrown Splash Weapons.

The DMG section on Acid Effects never says anything about the timing being instant or otherwise.  It notes the amount of damage you take per round, the fact that you can have poisonous fumes from large amounts of acid, and nothing more of any relevance.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Which is why they took the statement out, it is a confusing way to say it is an instant effect. Obviously (or at least it should be) a Flask of Acid or Sword could strike different areas of the body, and that Spells, magic Swords and Breath Weapons are magical in nature, not mundane, and so can deal multiple damages.

They took the statement out because it makes no sense in a section covering environmental acid (since neither of their examples were typical products of the environment).

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

You could spread the damage out, but this would be a house rule as there is no ruleset in the game for doing this, certainly not for doing some of the damage each turn. It also confuses the issue of Energy Resistance, so if I decide it is more realistic to deal damage out 2d6 per turn, rather then 10d6 a round, then there is the chance that Resistance could be applied to each of these seperately, as well as bypassing the Massive Damage rule.

Applying the damage at the start of a turn is also a houserule, since it's not stated anywhere that damage always applies at the start of the round.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

And again, it doesn't take a Full-Round of exposure to deal the damage either. Being in the acid for only a Move Action of time is the same as being in the acid for an Full Round, so you can't be consistant in spreading out 10d6 Damage over an indeterminate length of time.

Yes and no.  Initial exposure takes no particular time, but receiving the second dose of continuous exposure requires that you spend an entire round exposed.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

There is no rule for half or partial damage from being immersed, so there is no way to spread it out when you don't know how long they will be exposed for, and you can't divide the damage with an unknown variable.

You'd be dividing full damage.  There's nothing wrong with rolling the full damage, applying resistance to it, and still spreading it out across the round.  The only reason to turn to the Concentration skill in this case is that it's practically the only thing giving as any hint at when the damage applies during a round (other than "one round later than last time").

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The identicle effect should be treated as identicle however. There shouldn't be different rules for the same effect. The Damage should be applied the same regardless of who's turn it is taken on, or if the character falls into it during initiative or before initiative.

And of course there isn't a real difference when the situations are identical.  But we've been constantly comparing non-identical situations.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Starting a turn in Acid should be treated the same as being pushed into the acid. You are exposed to acid so you take Damage.

And you do.  You take damage on initial exposure, and you take further damage one round later.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:04AM, MrCustomer wrote:

If at any time during a round you are immersed in Acid, either by falling, being pushed in or by starting the round immersed, you take damage.

Starting your turn immersed wouldn't necessarily count if you've already taken damage that round, since the standard to which you adhere is "once per round".

If a foe pushes you in, you take damage on their turn, and one round later on their next turn.  You don't take it one your own turn since you've already suffered the effect of one round of exposure to acid.  When talking about exposure to generic environmental acid as described in the DMG (unlike flasks of acid, or acid-using spells) there is no greater exposure than total immersion that can occur during a round.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 1:20AM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

The DMG section on Acid Effects never says anything about the timing being instant or otherwise.  It notes the amount of damage you take per round, the fact that you can have poisonous fumes from large amounts of acid, and nothing more of any relevance.

It also doesn't say "damage per full round of exposure" so in the absence of any detail to the contrary it should be taken into effect instantly, and treated like any other effect in the game. And the fact that other acid exposure, mundane and magical alike, do instant damage on contact should also be a good indication.

 

They took the statement out because it makes no sense in a section covering environmental acid (since neither of their examples were typical products of the environment).

Actually the rules compendium doesn't list it under environmental hazards, it is under Energy and makes specific reference to damage from attacks and spells. 

Applying the damage at the start of a turn is also a houserule, since it's not stated anywhere that damage always applies at the start of the round.

Then applying the damage at all could be called a house rule, that is being silly. Since there is no way to predict when the person will get out of the acid during their turn the only point of consistancy is the start of of the round. Those are the only two points that will be consistant, the start of exposure and the beginning of a round,

Yes and no.  Initial exposure takes no particular time, but receiving the second dose of continuous exposure requires that you spend an entire round exposed.

There are two seperate mistakes in that assumption.
 
1: The Rules say "per round" not "after a Full Round" or "each round, as a Full-Round-Action (like casting a Full-Round spell)" or "at the end of each round" or "in the middle of your turn each round" So there is no language there that suggests an entire round of exposure. Only that it does it once per round.

"Per round" would be resolved at the start of each round, just as "per hit with a sword" would be resolved when hit by a sword, not at the end of that turn.


2: Rounds are measured from a start of a turn to just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative. Therefore the initial damage/exposure ends just before the next round begins, and that is the point in which "you've spent a round exposed"  and are now vulnerable for a second round of damage.

It doesn't say "entire round" or "exactly 6 seconds" it says "per round" and that is how per rounds are measured.  

You'd be dividing full damage.  There's nothing wrong with rolling the full damage, applying resistance to it, and still spreading it out across the round.

There is perhaps nothing wrong with doing this to a sword wound either, after all the person may be bleeding out to take that damage. But again this is a house rule. But again this is a house rule, and why can't disintigration work this way? And I can't think of a single other damage mechanic in D&D that works like this where you roll damage and then ignore it until later on.

The point is there is no such rule, it stats simple 10d6 damage, there is also no consistant way to spread this damage out, because there way to predict how it is spread out, since there is no way to predetermine when the character will get out of the acid.

So you get a case of a character taking the last damage long after he has left the acid, and you get the case of the character who is killed long after getting out of the acid, or you get the case of a character who takes only half the acid damage, none of these cases fit the Acid Damage rules.

The only reason to turn to the Concentration skill in this case is that it's practically the only thing giving as any hint at when the damage applies during a round (other than "one round later than last time").

Except the concentration rule confirms the damage is rolled at the start of a round, the person doesn't take the damage upon casting the spell, but is "considered" to have taken it for the Concentration DC.

So the rule confirms that full damage is rolled at the start of a turn

The Concentration rule has a second part , that states on the last round of the damage, spells can be cast without being effected by the damage, this confirms again that the damage is rolled and taken at the start of that round, since if it was taken at the end it would still effect the Concentration checks.


So to sum it up thus far.

-Only consistant duration in the acid is at initial exposure and the beginning of a round.

-Damage is rolled at the start of a round (concentration roll for half damage confirms this)

-Damage is taken at the start of a round (last round doesn't effect concentration as above)

And of course there isn't a real difference when the situations are identical.  But we've been constantly comparing non-identical situations.

Falling/being pushed into a pit of acid, I can't see how that can be non-identicle. I am saying it works the same if you fall in, if you are pushed in on someone elses turn, if you fall in during initiative, if you fall in before initiative. If you start a turn in Acid or if you are pushed or fall into the acid during your turn. All the matters is you are exposed that round to acid, you take damage

And you do.  You take damage on initial exposure, and you take further damage one round later.

One round later is the beginning of the next turn in the same initiative. If you begin a round in acid then that is initial exposure for that round.  

Starting your turn immersed wouldn't necessarily count if you've already taken damage that round, since the standard to which you adhere is "once per round". If a foe pushes you in, you take damage on their turn, and one round later on their next turn.

How many times do I have to state to you that I am refering to the same turn in which the initial effect occured? Since we were talking about walking into a trap I've simply assumed the same turn for sake of simplicity. 

  I'm saying you take it on your turn simply because I am assuming you walked into the trap on your own turn, if you were pushed in on someone else's turn then you would apply it to that turn instead. I've specified enough times in this thread that it reoccurs in the same initiative order. 

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

you are wrong:

ENERGY (RC pag 48)
Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according to the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses the energy.

-Now an attack is a effect???
you are calling for the damage section.

or you call the very last entry ??? then a acid pool don't deal damage because don't is used in an attack???? the attack are out this entry the energy can be used for an attack, not is the attack itself.

Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things, which is why you roll dice differently for each. The Attack causes an Effect.   

Many spells require attack rolls for rays, ranged and melee touch attacks, etc and thus require a Ranged Touch Attack, Ray of Frost is Cold Energy Damage, but requires a Ranged Touch Attack. the spell, Flame Blade needs a Melee Touch Attack and does Fire Energy Damage. Shocking Grasp deals Electric Energy damage on a Melee Touch Attack. You also need to do a melee touch attack for cure light wounds and teleport and invisibility against unwilling targets, (it's assumed willing targets allow you to touch them)

You are confusing yourself because there is no such thing as Attack Damage. You attack to hit the target and then deal Damage Type accordingly, in this case you are attacking with an Energy Effect.

If You attacks a target with DR 5 and Energy Resistance:fire 5 with a +1 Fiery Longsword, +1d6 Fire Damage, you would roll 1d8+4 (the +1 longsword & +3 str modifier) vs the DR and +1d6 Seperately vs the Fire Resistance. The Fire on the Fiery Longsword is a Fire Energy Effect.

That is why you need to read the first heading on page 42 of the RC, Damage Types and the Energy Damage entry below and the first Heading on page 48 under Energy. The Damage from a Acid Flask is an Acid Effect.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 10:53AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things, which is why you roll dice differently for each. The Attack causes an Effect.   

Many spells require attack rolls for rays, ranged and melee touch attacks, etc and thus require a Ranged Touch Attack, Ray of Frost is Cold Energy Damage, but requires a Ranged Touch Attack. the spell, Flame Blade needs a Melee Touch Attack and does Fire Energy Damage. Shocking Grasp deals Electric Energy damage on a Melee Touch Attack. You also need to do a melee touch attack for cure light wounds and teleport and invisibility against unwilling targets, (it's assumed willing targets allow you to touch them)

You are confusing yourself because there is no such thing as Attack Damage. You attack to hit the target and then deal Damage Type accordingly, in this case you are attacking with an Energy Effect.

If You attacks a target with DR 5 and Energy Resistance:fire 5 with a +1 Fiery Longsword, +1d6 Fire Damage, you would roll 1d8+4 (the +1 longsword & +3 str modifier) vs the DR and +1d6 Seperately vs the Fire Resistance. The Fire on the Fiery Longsword is a Fire Energy Effect.

That is why you need to read the first heading on page 42 of the RC, Damage Types and the Energy Damage entry below and the first Heading on page 48 under Energy. The Damage from a Acid Flask is an Acid Effect.

Yes the effect not is the same that the attack.

If you use the Acid for an attack you need follow the rule set of the attack.

ACID Flask item is described as 1d6 acid damage as attack.
AcidBurst As described as Extra 1d6 acid damage in an attack.

If you use the Acid as a Affect the you follow the rules set of the Acid effect.

A person in a Pool of Acid take 1d6 or 10d6 per round of Exposure.


as example
If some one use Dry Ice to attack you thats would cause damage to you and an extra cold damage (maybe 1), but if you put the Dry Ice in your hand this don't deal damage again you until some seconds passed (a round) this is the same with the acid.

Oma, again the rules don't say "damage per Full-Round of exposure" just damage per round.

And You have just said in essense that an attack "counts as a round of exposure"     

Dec 14, 2012 -- 11:49AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, again the rules don't say "damage per Full-Round of exposure" just damage per round.

And You have just said in essense that an attack "counts as a round of exposure"     

i never read one attack entry that say "this Long Sword Deal 1d8 per Round of Exposure"

and you need to be agree that "a Round Of Exposure" can be interpreted as "you need a round of exposure to take damage"

and under the rules a round are 6 full seconds.

and under the logic of many elements don't deal damage instantly like the Dry Ice and the Fire, you know you can touch a hot pan without take damage if you only touch it for an instant, the same with the Dry Ice.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 12:16PM, Oma012 wrote:

i never read one attack entry that say "this Long Sword Deal 1d8 per Round of Exposure"

Of course not Oma, which is why the orriginal entry clarified that an attack "counts as a round of exposure"  in case it wasn't obvious enough that being hit with an attack didn't deal instant damage.

The RC has't changed this because an acid attack still does intant damage, they simply left out an unneeded and horribly obvious explaination.

Now look at a Flask of Alchemist's Fire, 1d6 Fire Damage and go through the same rules, Damage Type: Fire energy, Energy: Fire in the RC, the flask is very clearly Fire Energy.   

and you need to be agree that "a Round Of Exposure" can be interpreted as "you need a round of exposure to take damage" and under the rules a round are 6 full seconds.

There is no "a round of exposure" the rules say "per round" Just as a character only gets one standard action per round does not mean a standard action takes a full 6 seconds.

maybe if it used the term "per full-round" otherwise per-round just means it happens once per round. This is basic language because the rules do use the terms Full-Round  and 1 Round and X Rounds very specifically where it applies. That it doesn't use these terms means it doesn't require a Full-Round
 

and under the logic of many elements don't deal damage instantly like the Dry Ice and the Fire, you know you can touch a hot pan without take damage if you only touch it for an instant, the same with the Dry Ice.

Sure, but I asked you to define what sort of move action that would be in D&D? With the Acid Flask and Fireball Spells we have already determined that "instantaneous" isn't fast enough, although a Rogue can make a Reflex save to avoid an instant effect with Evasion.

A Reflex save to quickly touch a frying pan for no damage is reasonable, you are only touching your fingers on the frying pan's surface, not dipping your entire body into acid. Can you jump into a 10 ft deep pool, touch the bottom and get out of the pool fast enough to not get wet? No? didn't think so. 

Dec 14, 2012 -- 2:13PM, MrCustomer wrote:

1- fire effects don't exist then fire never do damage??? again the damage kind don't are the same that the rule set, if not it become very redundant??? why dont exist electricity effects, fire effects and Ice effects???

The very easy example is the Magma that deal Fire damage (a kind of damage) instead of Magma damage.

2-The rule say "points of damage per round of exposure"

3- Yes but if the rouge is touched he take the damage instantly, if some one hit the rouge with an attack he take the damage instantly, if he fall he take the damage instantly because are described in each rule set, but the acid effect are other rule set that dont say that you deal the damage instantly.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Oma012 wrote:

1- fire effects don't exist then fire never do damage??? again the damage kind don't are the same that the rule set, if not it become very redundant??? why dont exist electricity effects, fire effects and Ice effects???

Oma, the damage is the same for the effect. And it is an easy rule, I don't see how this can be confusing, "Acid Damage"   There is no redundancy, you just don't want to recognize that "counts as a round of damage" meaning the acid flask does instant damage because the logical extension of that obvious little rule is just as obvious.

The very easy example is the Magma that deal Fire damage (a kind of damage) instead of Magma damage.

Don't play word games. Fire energy refers to any heat related energy, and I could just as easily name the acid, a flask of Hydrogen Fluoride or a Pool of the Spirit of Niter.

2-The rule say "points of damage per round of exposure"

Er that's what I said, and not "per full-round" or "per 1-Round" if a Full-Rond was required the rules would use very specific language to indicate this, as they have in other rules

[

3- Yes but if the rouge is touched he take the damage instantly, if some one hit the rouge with an attack he take the damage instantly, if he fall he take the damage instantly because are described in each rule set, but the acid effect are other rule set that dont say that you deal the damage instantly.

I really really hate that you can't spell Rogue properly, it is in the books, and it is about time you stop calling them "reds"

This is another case where it follows the general rule that every other effect follows. It deals the damage at the start of exposure, unless there is a specific rule that states otherwise. In the absence of any such rule, the complete non-existance of any such rule, then it is dealt like normal, at the beginning.


It's not freaking rocket science, it is acid. fall in and take damage, start a round in it and take damage. Simple, straightforward and consistant.  

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

It also doesn't say "damage per full round of exposure" so in the absence of any detail to the contrary it should be taken into effect instantly, and treated like any other effect in the game. And the fact that other acid exposure, mundane and magical alike, do instant damage on contact should also be a good indication.

That's because stating it for every full round of exposure would be inaccurate.  You don't necessarily need a full round to suffer the effects of initial exposure, even if it will be an entire round of time before you'll suffer the second dose of damage.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Actually the rules compendium doesn't list it under environmental hazards, it is under Energy and makes specific reference to damage from attacks and spells. 

It's true that the Rules Compendium lists it under a broader "Energy" heading, but the only reference I can see to spells is in the sidebar (actually at the bottom of the page) discussing the oddity of calling acid a type of energy.

It does, however, place acid effects in the "Special Situations" section of the Energy entry.  It's dealing with acid in nonstandard situations, rather than the general behaviour of acid in things like splash weapons or energy-using spells, and as the situations it describes note the effects of total immersion, fumes from large bodies of acid, and the possibility of drowning, it's almost invariably talking about an environmental source of acid.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Since there is no way to predict when the person will get out of the acid during their turn the only point of consistancy is the start of of the round. Those are the only two points that will be consistant, the start of exposure and the beginning of a round,

The start of exposure is consistent, but the beginning of a turn is not, since it doesn't consistently align with the beginning of a new round of ongoing exposure.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

1: The Rules say "per round" not "after a Full Round" or "each round, as a Full-Round-Action (like casting a Full-Round spell)" or "at the end of each round" or "in the middle of your turn each round" So there is no language there that suggests an entire round of exposure. Only that it does it once per round.

"Per round" would be resolved at the start of each round, just as "per hit with a sword" would be resolved when hit by a sword, not at the end of that turn.

If you've already taken damage from the initial exposure, then the very soonest you can take the next dose of damage is 1 round later.  If you take it any sooner, it's more than once per round.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

2: Rounds are measured from a start of a turn to just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative. Therefore the initial damage/exposure ends just before the next round begins, and that is the point in which "you've spent a round exposed"  and are now vulnerable for a second round of damage.

It doesn't say "entire round" or "exactly 6 seconds" it says "per round" and that is how per rounds are measured.

Rounds can often be measured from the start of one turn in initiative until just before the start of that same turn in the initiative order next time, and that duration is indeed a round of time, but it's also not the entire definition for a round (which is any six second period), just one of the possibilities.

And in this particular case, it's impossible to measure from the start of a turn unless the initial exposure occurred then, since it could result in applying damage more than once per round which would be inconsistent with the amount of damage that is stated to apply.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

There is perhaps nothing wrong with doing this to a sword wound either, after all the person may be bleeding out to take that damage. But again this is a house rule. But again this is a house rule, and why can't disintigration work this way? And I can't think of a single other damage mechanic in D&D that works like this where you roll damage and then ignore it until later on.

The point is there is no such rule, it stats simple 10d6 damage, there is also no consistant way to spread this damage out, because there way to predict how it is spread out, since there is no way to predetermine when the character will get out of the acid.

So you get a case of a character taking the last damage long after he has left the acid, and you get the case of the character who is killed long after getting out of the acid, or you get the case of a character who takes only half the acid damage, none of these cases fit the Acid Damage rules.

You don't really ignore the damage until later, you're just taking your time applying it , and the other cases you've mentioned don't count as continuous damage, so spreading out their effects would make no sense (since the only reference we've got to a distribution uses continuous damage).  You can quite simply apply half of it to an action taken (while in the acid), and the other half of it to the next action if the character is still in the acid, and it fits with our nice Concentration description, the amount of damage typically taken over a round, and the sort of logical outcome you'd expect.

You wouldn't get a case of the character taking the last damage long after they'd left the acid, since it's never going to apply later than within a single round (which would simply mean that they were burnt by the acid during the course of their turn, suffering the full damage by the end of the round.  Maybe it kills them by the end of a round, but that's okay for an effect that supposedly lasts all turn.  Apply it as half per action and it fits even better.

As for only taking half damage, that fits the acid damage rules because it's described as half damage without changing the full amount.  It's the same as how making a Reflex save against a fireball and taking half damage doesn't contradict the spell's normal damage.  You can roll full damage just fine even if you don't end up using it all.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Except the concentration rule confirms the damage is rolled at the start of a round, the person doesn't take the damage upon casting the spell, but is "considered" to have taken it for the Concentration DC.

So the rule confirms that full damage is rolled at the start of a turn

Being considered to be a certain way doesn't exclude the damage from actually applying in exactly the same way.  Quite the contrary.  Nor does it suggest the start of a turn anywhere.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The Concentration rule has a second part , that states on the last round of the damage, spells can be cast without being effected by the damage, this confirms again that the damage is rolled and taken at the start of that round, since if it was taken at the end it would still effect the Concentration checks.

The second part doesn't refer to the last round of damage (the paragraph in question doesn't contain the word "turn" or "round" anywhere); it refers to simply the last damage that the continuous effect could deal.  That's independent of any particular turn or round.  It's simply a question of whether or not the effect has dealt its last dose of damage; when that dose was applied during a round is completely irrelevant.

If that damage was taken at the end of the character's turn, it would simply mean that the last damage from the effect had not yet been dealt, so it would indeed still require a Concentration check for a spell cast during the character's turn, just like damage that occurs during a later round.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

-Only consistant duration in the acid is at initial exposure and the beginning of a round.

Which readily conflicts with the listed amount of damage per round in the latter case.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

-Damage is rolled at the start of a round (concentration roll for half damage confirms this)

-Damage is taken at the start of a round (last round doesn't effect concentration as above)

You're mentally patching in the "last round" part, since you seem to assume it, but it's not stated.  The Concentration roll simply confirms that the damage has been rolled at some previous point, not when it was rolled.

You could, for example, be taking damage that isn't applied on a per-round basis at all (such as damage from exposure to cold), and the Concentration rules will work just as well since they aren't chained to rounds.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Falling/being pushed into a pit of acid, I can't see how that can be non-identicle. I am saying it works the same if you fall in, if you are pushed in on someone elses turn, if you fall in during initiative, if you fall in before initiative. If you start a turn in Acid or if you are pushed or fall into the acid during your turn. All the matters is you are exposed that round to acid, you take damage

In that particular comparison (as opposed to the flask of acid) the effects are dealt at different times, so their damage occurs at per-round times consistent with their initial exposure rather than automatically happening at the start of a character's turn.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

One round later is the beginning of the next turn in the same initiative. If you begin a round in acid then that is initial exposure for that round.

One round later is six seconds later.   A standard character's whole turn in the initiative order (their "round") is indeed a round of time since it matches that duration, but "one round later" is not automatically at the start of their next turn since an effect need not have begun then.

If you fall into a pit of acid at the very end of your turn, the next round of being in the acid doesn't begin until the same point during your next turn, or you'd be taking acid damage twice before even being able to react.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

How many times do I have to state to you that I am refering to the same turn in which the initial effect occured? Since we were talking about walking into a trap I've simply assumed the same turn for sake of simplicity.

I'm still trying to demonstrate to you the distinction between a round and a turn; using this example is just more dramatically different than describing different points in your own turn and how they relate to the actual duration of being in acid.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, MrCustomer wrote:

I'm saying you take it on your turn simply because I am assuming you walked into the trap on your own turn, if you were pushed in on someone else's turn then you would apply it to that turn instead. I've specified enough times in this thread that it reoccurs in the same initiative order. 

That seems to lead to you equating every round of time with a character's turn, rather than considering the rounds of time that do not exactly mesh in that fashion, and it's a chief point on which we disagree.

There's a convenient mechanical flourish that ends effect with a known duration in rounds (which is fair enough as a mechanical compromise when you know they'll definitely be finished by the turn in question even if they're not stopped sooner), but the rest of the association is coincidental.  Effects tend to start and end in a loose correlation with character's turns because characters perform them, but it's easy to disassociate those effects from initiative to demonstrate their attachment to real rounds, rather than the convenient artifice of turns in initiative that allows combat to work.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 11:17PM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

  That's because stating it for every full round of exposure would be inaccurate.  You don't necessarily need a full round to suffer the effects of initial exposure, even if it will be an entire round of time before you'll suffer the second dose of damage.

Then it comes to how the game treats round. The turn in which the exposure happened, the first round, ends just before the beginning of the same turn in initiative order. 

So if the fighter (keeping it simple) moves and falls into the pit, he takes inititial damage and takes no more damage for the rest of the round. That round ends just before the beginning of his next turn.

On his next turn is a new round. He is once again exposed to acid (just the same as if he was suddenly dropped in again) It's a new round, it's new exposure.

The thing of it is, D&D 3.5 doesn't deal in seconds, it deals in rounds. Even effects that last X amount of time are broken into rounds, ie a 1 minute time is 10 rounds. If it is smaller then a round it is treate as a Full-round, Move/Standard action, a Swift Action or a free action etc. So unless it specifies otherwise that is how the "per round" is counted.

It's simple and straight forward, and 100% functional.

It's true that the Rules Compendium lists it under a broader "Energy" heading, but the only reference I can see to spells is in the sidebar (actually at the bottom of the page) discussing the oddity of calling acid a type of energy.

It does, however, place acid effects in the "Special Situations" section of the Energy entry.  It's dealing with acid in nonstandard situations, rather than the general behaviour of acid in things like splash weapons or energy-using spells, and as the situations it describes note the effects of total immersion, fumes from large bodies of acid, and the possibility of drowning, it's almost invariably talking about an environmental source of acid.

A flask of acid is still just a flask of that mundane acid mentioned there. And why it can cover large bodies of acid (10d6 immersion, breathing hazards etc) is also covers 1d6 damage for contact with smaller sources. And lets be blunt the section deals with the 5 sources of energy as mentioned in the first heading. Acid, Fire, Cold, Sonic and Electric

Lets not get into the logic that acid isn't acid. 

The start of exposure is consistent, but the beginning of a turn is not, since it doesn't consistently align with the beginning of a new round of ongoing exposure.

What game are you playing? The start of the turn in the same inititative order is the beginning of new round.

This is how every other effect in game works, when it began in the previous round doesn't matter, it only matters, again "per round" when the round it initiated ends and when the new round begins. This is initiative order.   

If you've already taken damage from the initial exposure, then the very soonest you can take the next dose of damage is 1 round later.  If you take it any sooner, it's more than once per round.

No it isn't , you only take the damage once on each round, unless you are LARPing and set a 6 second stopwatch, there is no way to mediate it otherwise.

Taking the damage at the end of a turn would conversely be taking the next dose less then once per round using your method. And there again is no real way of measuring the exact time something happens during a round, since individual actions are swift, move, Standard, Full-Round and not 1 second to attack with a knife, 2 seconds with a Great Sword, 4 seconds with a Longbow......
   

Rounds can often be measured from the start of one turn in initiative until just before the start of that same turn in the initiative order next time, and that duration is indeed a round of time, but it's also not the entire definition for a round (which is any six second period), just one of the possibilities.

And since no individual action can be measured in exact seconds  there is no way to use a 6 second stop watch from the initial action to the current actions in the proceeding round. Initial exposure and beginning of a round are the only consistant methods.
 

And in this particular case, it's impossible to measure from the start of a turn unless the initial exposure occurred then, since it could result in applying damage more than once per round which would be inconsistent with the amount of damage that is stated to apply.

Conversly appying it at the end of a turn would result in applying damage less then once a round using that line of reasoning.

And again the rule doesn't say "per full-round"  or "exactly after each full round expires" just per round. It only suffices in 3.5 rules that it occurs on each round of exposure. There is no further ruleset given nor implied.

Since the person can leave the acid at any given time, the only consistant way to deal the damage is at the onset of exposure on each round. 

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Then it comes to how the game treats round. The turn in which the exposure happened, the first round, ends just before the beginning of the same turn in initiative order.

The round for the turn in which the exposure happened is not automatically the same as a round measured from the start of acid exposure.  They have the potential to coincide, but are not intrinsically linked.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

So if the fighter (keeping it simple) moves and falls into the pit, he takes inititial damage and takes no more damage for the rest of the round. That round ends just before the beginning of his next turn.

In this case two kinds of rounds have occured.  The fighter's turn began a round of action for him in combat.  Once he fell into the pit, a separate but overlapping round of time began for acid exposure.

His own turn ends just before the beginning of his next turn (and it is indeed a round), while the round of acid exposure extends into his next turn.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

On his next turn is a new round. He is once again exposed to acid (just the same as if he was suddenly dropped in again) It's a new round, it's new exposure.

By the time the fighter's next turn comes around, exposure to acid has not persisted for a round, but once the new round of acid exposure begins, he again takes damage.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

A flask of acid is still just a flask of that mundane acid mentioned there. And why it can cover large bodies of acid (10d6 immersion, breathing hazards etc) is also covers 1d6 damage for contact with smaller sources. And lets be blunt the section deals with the 5 sources of energy as mentioned in the first heading. Acid, Fire, Cold, Sonic and Electric

It's not established that the acid in a flask of acid is of the same nature as the acid in a pit; perhaps it is, perhaps it is not.  Not all acid is equal, as various different sources of acid show with their differing intensities and other effects.

But that's beside the point; a flask of acid behaves differently to an acid pit because of a formalized position in the rules that makes it a splash weapon, not really for any other particular reason.  It's the nature of those specific rules that explains inconsistencies like not being constantly burned by the acid flask (you're probably still drenched in acid from the flask one round later but take no additional damage, while an environmental acid source would be burning you again).

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

What game are you playing? The start of the turn in the same inititative order is the beginning of new round.

This is how every other effect in game works, when it began in the previous round doesn't matter, it only matters, again "per round" when the round it initiated ends and when the new round begins. This is initiative order.

Rounds take a variety of forms.  One of the common forms is to have a variety of overlapping round durations that form the places in the initiative order of various characters.

It is, however, just as valid for a round to begin from any point, not just the beginning a particular character's initiative.  A round of exposure to acid begins whenever you were initially exposed, and that may well not correlate with the round of actions that forms your turn in the initiative order.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

No it isn't , you only take the damage once on each round, unless you are LARPing and set a 6 second stopwatch, there is no way to mediate it otherwise.

Taking the damage at the end of a turn would conversely be taking the next dose less then once per round using your method. And there again is no real way of measuring the exact time something happens during a round, since individual actions are swift, move, Standard, Full-Round and not 1 second to attack with a knife, 2 seconds with a Great Sword, 4 seconds with a Longbow......

Difficult to mediate is not the same as mechanically inaccurate.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

And since no individual action can be measured in exact seconds  there is no way to use a 6 second stop watch from the initial action to the current actions in the proceeding round. Initial exposure and beginning of a round are the only consistant methods.

Or you can apply the damage that occurs at a time that is difficult to mediate at the point that is suggested by the Concentration skill, which is the best the rules do for a round that doesn't neatly measure up to a character's turn.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Conversly appying it at the end of a turn would result in applying damage less then once a round using that line of reasoning.

And again the rule doesn't say "per full-round"  or "exactly after each full round expires" just per round. It only suffices in 3.5 rules that it occurs on each round of exposure. There is no further ruleset given nor implied.

Applying things exactly after each round expires is a standard you've used to claim that the damage occurs at the start of a turn.  Without that, why not have it occur at any point you like during the next turn or even spread it out across that turn?  Applying an effect that occurs continuously across different parts of a turn likewise fulfills the rule that it occurs on each round of exposure, and it avoids giving preference to the start or end of the turn.

Dec 15, 2012 -- 11:11AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Since the person can leave the acid at any given time, the only consistant way to deal the damage is at the onset of exposure on each round. 

As we've demonstrated, that gives an inconsistent form of exposure, just as applying the damage at the end of a turn can do.

And if you avoid the logic of requiring a full round of exposure, there is still no inconsistency with applying it at the end of the exposure that occurs during a round, whether that's at the moment a full round ends (even for their turn) or simply at the moment that they leave the acid (since the moment that they leave the acid is just as definable as the moment they enter it).

To expand on your former statements, if we keep within the framework of the characters own turn as a round, we know four distinct timing events that we can use for dealing acid damage:

• When exposure starts.
• When exposure ends.
• The start of their turn.
• The end of their turn.

If you want to apply the damage for a round at the initial point of contact and at the start of each turn, it would be equally consistent to apply it at the end of each turn up until the final point of contact.  It certainly makes sense for a character to only have suffered the effects of a full "round" of exposure after actually spending a their own round within the acid, rather than taking a full round of damage before being in the acid for even one of their own turns.

And this is equally true for the acid flask, since it's true exposure (the time in which it applies damage) is typically a single instant comprising both the start and end of exposure. Its companion splash weapon, the flask of alchemist's fire amkes an interesting addition to all this by allowing the target to take a full-round action to extinguish the flames before taking the additional damage on the round following a direct hit, indicating that the damage occurs later, rather than earlier.

Dec 16, 2012 -- 7:14AM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

The round for the turn in which the exposure happened is not automatically the same as a round measured from the start of acid exposure.  They have the potential to coincide, but are not intrinsically linked.

And I will again tell you that there is no other ruleset in 3.5 to do it otherwise. Every single other effect, ability etc functions this way, there is no rules for individual timers. I could list endless scenerios, none of which work like you are suggesting, because the game doesn't deal in individual timers, it works in Rounds and Turns. It doesn't matter when it took effect in the first round, it stops at the end of that round, and is counted from the beginning of the next round.    

Dec 16, 2012 -- 9:59PM, MrCustomer wrote:

And I will again tell you that there is no other ruleset in 3.5 to do it otherwise. Every single other effect, ability etc functions this way, there is no rules for individual timers. I could list endless scenerios, none of which work like you are suggesting, because the game doesn't deal in individual timers, it works in Rounds and Turns. It doesn't matter when it took effect in the first round, it stops at the end of that round, and is counted from the beginning of the next round.

I never said that the game didn't work in rounds and turns; they're just not the same rounds that you think they are (the existence of turns actually depends on the characters having individual timers for their actions).  Effects that last a certain number of turns do end just before a particular initiative count, while other effects are not stated to apply in this manner (and their omission from the statement suggests that they do not apply in that manner).

Additionally, since it doesn't matter when the effect takes place in the first round, why should it matter when it takes place in any subsequent rounds?  There is no intrinsic problem there, and it doesn't conflict with the ending time of any effect (not even those with certain durations in rounds, since they still end at the same point) it simply produces different results.

Let's consider that flask of alchemist's fire in the sample situation of a fighter reading to throw it upon a hapless wizard while she's trying to cast a spell.  The wizard moves into position, tries to cast her spell, and the fighter throws the flask upon her, dealing 1d6 fire damage.  On the round following this direct hit (her next turn), she takes 1d6 damage.  If she can take a full-round action to extinguish the flames before taking the second dose of damage, when does she take that action?

In the first round it takes effect when the PC falls into the acid.

It does matter when the effect takes place during a round because it can change what occurs during that round, especially if it would interupt the actions during that turn. For example if the Acid damage would kill the character then allowing them to cast a spell first or climb safely out first, then yes it matters when the damage is taken.

The Acid effect is stated to apply in this manner, because it is an acid effect, it would function no different then the spell Acid Arrow, which is also an Acid Effect, they both do damage per round. Acid Effects deal damage "per round" and the rules state exactly how that works

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

Acid Effects last a number of rounds corresponding to the number of rounds exposed. Exposed 1 round, it lasts 1 round, exposed 5 rounds it lasts 5 rounds. It falls under this rule, and there being no other rules, this is how it would work.

As for the Alchemists fire, the target needs to take a full-round action to put the fire out. Typically in a Comabt round they would get a chance to take this action before the next round. ie:
Initiative order, Wizard, enemy, ally1, ally2

-Wizard,
-Enemy, Throws Alchmnist flask at wizard (round 1 of flask)
-Ally1, rnd 1 of flask
-Ally2, rnd 1 of flask
-Wizard, rnd 1 of flask, full-round action to put out
-Enemy, start of round 2 for flask


It is key here that the second round doesn't occur until the enemies turn, so the wizard has turn before this to put the fire out.  


In your case, the Enemy readies an action to throw the flask

-Wizard
-Enemy readies an action to throw flask
-ally1
-ally2
-Wizard casts spell, enemy throws flask, end of Wizard's turn, rnd 1 of flask
-The inititative order now changes  as a result of the readied action
-ally1, rnd 1 of flask
-ally2, rnd 1 of flask
-enemy, round 2 of flask
-Wizard , turn is too late to put fire out for round 2.

Readied actions change the initiative order because the action is considered to have taken place right before the turn it is taken (the wizard's casting)  The Wizard unforetunatly didn't spend his turn trying to put the fire out and instead spent it trying to cast a spell. He takes 2 rounds.

However, in the above case I would find it reasonable, (but not RAW) if the wizard had an action left that turn, to allow the wizard to attempt to put out the fire as a move action during the turn he was hit as a Special Case rule. Again not rules as written, but fair enough and there is some precedents for being able to use a standard action in place of a full-round action.



   

Dec 17, 2012 -- 8:26AM, MrCustomer wrote:

wrong

you change the initiative order at the end of the ready action but the flask deal damage in the initiative count of the wizard then

18-Wizard
15-Enemy readies an action to throw flask.
9-ally1.
4-ally2.
18(+1)-Wizard casts spell, enemy throws flask, end of Wizard's turn, rnd 1 of flask(18+1)
18(+3)-The inititative order now changes  as a result of the readied action
9-ally1, rnd 1 of flask(18+1).
4-ally2, rnd 1 of flask(18+1).
18(+3)-enemy, round 1 of flask(18+1).
18(+1)-Wizard , round 2 of flask.(18+1)

And again the Acid effect is for non-combat situations.

Either way Oma, round 2 starts at the beginning of the wizard's turn, and he takes damage. He can try to extinguish the flames to prevent a third round of damage 9in cases where it lasts that long) but he can't stop the second round.

This is just like on the first round. He starts his turn on fire and spends the entire first round trying to put the fire out to prevent taking damage on the second round.

-enemy throws flask 1st round damage
-wizard spends round putting out the fire 
-ally1
-ally2
-Enemy, second round, fire is already out.


In your example the Wizard would take damage for the second round either way.


And the acid pit works the same regardless of being used in combat or out of combat, there is no "out of combat rules" the trap will always function exactly the same.   
     

Dec 17, 2012 -- 12:21PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Either way Oma, round 2 starts at the beginning of the wizard's turn, and he takes damage. He can try to extinguish the flames to prevent a third round of damage 9in cases where it lasts that long) but he can't stop the second round.

This is just like on the first round. He starts his turn on fire and spends the entire first round trying to put the fire out to prevent taking damage on the second round.

-enemy throws flask 1st round damage
-wizard spends round putting out the fire 
-ally1
-ally2
-Enemy, second round, fire is already out.


In your example the Wizard would take damage for the second round either way.


And the acid pit works the same regardless of being used in combat or out of combat, there is no "out of combat rules" the trap will always function exactly the same.   
     

yes but this are described in the Rules here.

A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Then he take 1d6 of the attack and in the next turn he take 1d6 of ongoing damage in the same Initiative order.

But in the case of an Acid effect this entry don't exist only "Per Round of Exposure" remember that an acid effect not is an attack.

"remember that an acid effect not is an attack."

Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things. An acid effect is damage, not an attack. In this case a Flask of Acid only does a single round of damage. It is still an Acid Effect even if it is dealt instantly.

There is no such thing as Attack Damage. 

Dec 17, 2012 -- 1:14PM, MrCustomer wrote:

"remember that an acid effect not is an attack."

Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things. An acid effect is damage, not an attack. In this case a Flask of Acid only does a single round of damage. It is still an Acid Effect even if it is dealt instantly.

There is no such thing as Attack Damage. 

i know it for it an acid effect not is an attack but can do damage.

and in the case of acid flask this is an attack and deal damage as described in her rules (1d6 in direct hit not "1d6 per round of exposure")
if not then you deal 1d6 of acid damage for the direct hit and 1d6 of acid damage for the acid effect in the next turn.

and this don't work like that because you need 1 full round of exposure to take the 1d6 at the next turn.


this not is a acid effect under the updated rules, acid effects apply when no attack happen.

Oma, this is my last post in this topic, so don't bother replying to me. It's clear that you lack the capacity to understand even the simplist concepts because you are too focused on being right at all costs.  

Oma, if it says it does acid damage then it is a &*%&# Acid Effect. Plain and simple. Read the damn rules or shut up. To say that Acid Damage is not an Acid Effect is to say that Acid is not Acid, which is just $#%@$%ing idiotic. That is the politest possible way to reply to such a moronic statement.

There is no such things as  "dirrect hit damage" or Attack Damage or any other such nonsense. It deals Damage Type: Acid Energy, which is an Acid Effect.

Also nowhere in the rules, not a single place under Acid Effects does it say or imply the phrase "you need 1 full round of exposure" Again read the rules it does not say that. It does not use the term "1 full Round" or the term "Per Full Round"  and those terms are used elsewhere in the book. It says per round, which just means it happens on each round, nothing more. You are adding words to the rules that don't exist.

It is an Acid Effect, and there is no rule that 1-Full Round is required to do acid damage, and the flask and other instant acid effects make that abundantly clear that it can be dealt instant. There are no updated rules about flasks or throwing splash weapons, they are identicle to the old rules, so this is also a moronic thing to say.

The Flask of Acid does an Instant Acid Effect, proving that Damage from acid is dealt instantly, as stated in the DMG, it counts as a round of exposure.  It's a flask of, wait for it ....ACID! It's a damn acid effect. 

Thats how the rules work, and touting all sorts of idiotic statements that Acid Damage isn't an Acid Effect, because "Acid isn't an Acid Effect if it is thrown in your face it's only an Acid Effect if you dunk your head in the same acid" is beyond stupid.


Acid Dameg is taken instantly at the start of exposure. The rules for how effects work are outlined in clear languange. Damage is taken at the start of each round you are in the acid. If you disagree with that it is because you are incapable of understanding, You are simply wrong.

Dec 17, 2012 -- 8:26AM, MrCustomer wrote:

In the first round it takes effect when the PC falls into the acid.

It does matter when the effect takes place during a round because it can change what occurs during that round, especially if it would interupt the actions during that turn. For example if the Acid damage would kill the character then allowing them to cast a spell first or climb safely out first, then yes it matters when the damage is taken.

It matters to the character, but not to the actual operation of the rules, which simply produce a different, but equally valid result.

Dec 17, 2012 -- 8:26AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The Acid effect is stated to apply in this manner, because it is an acid effect, it would function no different then the spell Acid Arrow, which is also an Acid Effect, they both do damage per round. Acid Effects deal damage "per round" and the rules state exactly how that works

By that same logic, all acid effects can be dispelled because Melf's acid arrow is an acid effect and can be dispelled.

That's obviously not the case, since the behaviour of a single specific acid effect described for its own circumstances does not dictate the behaviour of acid effects as a general category.

Dec 17, 2012 -- 8:26AM, MrCustomer wrote:

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

Acid Effects last a number of rounds corresponding to the number of rounds exposed. Exposed 1 round, it lasts 1 round, exposed 5 rounds it lasts 5 rounds. It falls under this rule, and there being no other rules, this is how it would work.

With an acid pit, the duration is never certain to end until you've managed to escape; you could always end up staying in it for another round.

We certainly get some funny effects out of it, though, like our good old Melf's acid arrow remaining active even after it deals its last dose of damage.

Slagger, there are specific rules in the game, one could debate endlessly the merits of additional rules, but here I am referenceing the specific rules that are in the book. These are the rules the book has. Now find the section that has different rules and quote them, you know the section for "Applying Environmental Damage like it isn't an Energy Effect" I believe it is on page 986 of the DMG.

Concerning Melf's Acid Arrow, it can, in the spell description, be neutralized, so being hit with it is no different then being in an acid pit. The characcter can spend a round neutralizing the Acid, such as taking off their clothing, or jumping into a lake (not of acid), Castign an Energy Resistance: Acid spell, etc

Point is most effects can be ended prematurely. The only thing that matters is if they have the effect at the start of the round. The rules concerning Concentration checks and the rules for Effects and rounds indicate that damage is rolled at the start of the round, and that (according to the final round) damage is taken at the start of the round.


As for the duration. Again, and repeatedly I have said this. All that matters is the initial exposure and the end/beginning of a round.

Fall in the acid is initial exposure, you take damage. If you remain exposed to the acid you won't take more damage from that exposure until the end of that round.

At the start of the next round, at any time that you are exposed to acid again, you will take Damage immediately.

So lets say you fall into acid on your turn take damage and promptly get back out.

And during your next turn (a new round) you fall in again, You will take damage again.

It doesn't matter if you start the round already in the acid, or you fall into the acid later, you will take damage as soon as you are exposed to it.

The only difference in the second round of being in the acid and the first round when you fell in, is that the exosure in the second round happens to correspond to the beginning of the round because you are already in the acid (as opposed to falling in)


It doesn't matter if you started in the acid and soaked in it for an entire round, if you were dipped in and out of it as a move action, if you were tied to a rope and dipped into the acid a dozen times during a round. You will only take 10d6 damage per round of exposure.   

Again, starting a round in the acid is no different then falling into it later, you take damage as soon as you are exposed to it during a round.   
  

Dec 17, 2012 -- 11:56PM, MrCustomer wrote:

then a grapple is the same that a club because both do bludgeoning damage?

The Rule Set don't have to do with the kind of damage.

Acid damage is damage of the energy type acid.

Acid effects work when you interact with acid not when you are attacked with acid, is the first that you need understand.

Oma, stop trying to play word games, read the section under Damage Types in the rules.


    Acid effects work when you interact with acid not when you are attacked with acid, is the first that you need understand.

Remember what I said about saying Acid isn`t Acid was &$%ing Idiotic, if being splashed with acid isn`t interacting with acid, then you are just showing how you are attempting to manilpulate the rules and how desperate your stance is.


BTW, Melf`s Acid Arrow. Does it do it`s Acid Damage Instantly or per round    

Dec 18, 2012 -- 11:07AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, stop trying to play word games, read the section under Damage Types in the rules.


    Acid effects work when you interact with acid not when you are attacked with acid, is the first that you need understand.

Remember what I said about saying Acid isn`t Acid was &$%ing Idiotic, if being splashed with acid isn`t interacting with acid, then you are just showing how you are attempting to manilpulate the rules and how desperate your stance is.


BTW, Melf`s Acid Arrow. Does it do it`s Acid Damage Instantly or per round    

sorry but that not are under Damage Type are Under Energy Section.

easy example under your logic the acid flask deal 2d6 of acid damage one as decribed in her entry and other in the next or the same turn because is one acid effect.

the other way is that this is an acid effect but because not are a round of exposure this weapon only deal the described damage not the extra damage for be an acid effect.

in the 2 ways or not is the same or you need 6 full seconds to take 1d6 of acid damage.

Melf`s Acid Arrow does Acid Damage,

Does it do that damage Instantly or does it do the damage per round.

Is it the same damage as a flask or is it an acid effect. 

Simple questions Oma. Answer them or admit you are wrong.
  

Dec 18, 2012 -- 11:17AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Melf`s Acid Arrow does Acid Damage,

Does it do that damage Instantly or does it do the damage per round.

Is it the same damage as a flask or is it an acid effect. 

Simple questions Oma. Answer them or admit you are wrong.
  

very easy as described in her entry not as described in Acid effect then not are the same.

as example Melf Acid arrow only do the damage described not her damage plus the acid effect.

Not what I asked

-Does Melf's Acid Arrow do Acid Damage?

Answer, Yes it does. In point of fact it deals "2d4 points of Acid Damage". This is a fact.

Page 42 of the Rules Compendium, Damage Types:
Weapons: do Slashing, Blungeoning or Piercing
Energy: does any of the 5 Energy types,  Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity and Sonic.

That is page 42 of the rules compendium saying that Acid Damage is an Energy Effect. "Abilities and effects that employ one of the five energy types deal energy damage"
    
Flip over to page 48 to confirm this, Under ENERGY this is the heading that covers Acid Effects, and your 10d6 Acid pit, it makes it clear refering to attacks that deal damage of the energy type or that use that energy (example Acid Damage).

So, Yes Melf's Acid Arrow is an Acid Effect.

 
So does Melf's Acid Arrow do damage instantly or per round, and if per round when does it do the damage each round?   should be a simple question Oma

Dec 18, 2012 -- 8:13PM, MrCustomer wrote:

ok again what have to be the kind of damage to the rules to apply the damage????

as example what have to do a grapple with a tunnel collapse

Yes Melf's Acid Arrow do ACID DAMAGE but don't is an Acid Effect is a Spell

Yes if you Swim in a Pool of acid you take ACID damage but not is a spell is an Acid effect

whit this you can say "a character with acid resistan can apply it to both Spells that deal acid damage and acid effects"

if you are saying that the Melf's Acid Arrow is an Acid effect then why it deal 2d4 instead of 1d6 or instead of 2d4 pluss 1d6???

Again if are the same i am right in the part that you need a full round to deal the acid effect damage for it this spell only do 2d4 instead of 2d4 plus 1d6.

If not are the same then i am right.

"ok again what have to be the kind of damage to the rules to apply the damage???? "

Everytime you ask that you show how completely out of touch with the rules you are. Because what kind of damage effects damage Reduction, Damage Resistance, Immunity, Weakness and a host of other conditions.

Acid is Energy. Not all fires do 1d6 damage (hey Fireball is Fire Energy) do they? 1d6 is only the base damage for these effects.

There are 5 energy types in the game, Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity and Sonic.

Everything that does Acid Damage is Energy Damage.

-A Flask of Acid Is Acid Energy, 
-Melf's Acid Arror is Acid Energy
-your pit of Acid is Acid Energy       

It explicitely says so in Page 42 and 48 of the Rules Compendium, and no amount of word games will change that, the rules outright explain that these are all Acid effects. Enough Word games, a simple Yes or No suffices for these two simple questions.

-Does Melf's Acid Arrow for instant damage or Damage per round?
-Does Melf's Acid Arror do damage at the beginning of the round or after a full round of exposure?

Does Melf's Acid Arrow do Instant Damage or Damage per round?

It does both, and works just like any other acid effect.

When hit with an Acid Arror you take instant damage. If it was a level 1 caster then that is all the damage you take from it. End of effect, so if you cast a spell afterwards that same round, you don't make a concentration check from it.

However it deals that instant damage in damage "per round"  that insatnt effect counts as a round of exposure. for you see...

If it was a higher level caster it could last for multple rounds or the same damage as a lower level caster.

In the case that it lasts for 2 rounds, You take the first round of damage instantly, and if you are casting a spell during that round (like in the above case) you would need to make a concentration check for half that damage.


On the start of the second round you would take a second round of damage. As the effect lasts 2 rounds you will no longer be effected if you cast a spell.

Examples: (initiative order is Enemy Caster then you)

Caster: Casts low level Melf's Acid arror, you take damage
You: cast a spell like normal

Example 2:

Caster: casts Melf's Acid arrow, high enough for 3 rounds of damage, You take instant damage
You: Cast a spell, make concentration check

Caster: You take 2nd round of damage, caster makes his turn
You: You cast a spell, make a concentration check

Caster : You take 3rd round of damage, effect ends, Caster takes his turn
You: You cast a spell as normal. 


There you go, that's how Acid effects work.  
  

Dec 19, 2012 -- 10:16AM, MrCustomer wrote:

1- Yes Acid is Energy.
2- Yes Fireball is Energy and deal damage as described in her own rules.
3- Yes are 5 energy types
4- Yes Anithing that do Acid Damage do Energy Damage
5- Yes Acid Flask of Acid, Melf's Acid Arrow and A pit of Acid are Acid Energy
6- Yes you are right about that all of this are Acid energy damage as saying in pag 42 of RC
7- Sorry Under the rules of pag 48 of RC under the section of SPECIAL SITUATIONS

"Some forms of energy can have other effects."

Acid Effects
Corrosive acid deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure. Total immersion in acid deals 10d6 points of damage per round. The fumes from most acids are inhaled poisons. Those who
come close enough to a large body of acid to dunk a creature in it are exposed to the fumes. Such creatures must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. If the first save fails, the creature must succeed on a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage. Creatures immune to acid might still drown in it (see Suffocation, page 141) if they’re totally immersed.

8- As described in her own Rules Melf's Acid Arrow do damage at contact and again in the next round in the same initiative count.

Now a Pool of acid have rules to do damage or to be used in an attack???? nop then you call for an acid effect.

Again not are the same Rule set.
this pool deal damage

If you want that Melf's acid arrow be an acid effect then you need make Mel'f Acid Arrow "have other effects" and deal only 1d6 of damage per round of exposure

"Some forms of energy can have other effects."

Except you are applying it in reverse. Some forms of energy "can have other effects" other then the effects listed below. 

Dec 19, 2012 -- 12:46PM, MrCustomer wrote:

"Some forms of energy can have other effects."

Except you are applying it in reverse. Some forms of energy "can have other effects" other then the effects listed below. 

I dont play it in reverse.

This come in "SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCE" Entry then only work while the standard don't apply like a non-attack.

Dec 18, 2012 -- 7:01AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Slagger, there are specific rules in the game, one could debate endlessly the merits of additional rules, but here I am referenceing the specific rules that are in the book. These are the rules the book has. Now find the section that has different rules and quote them, you know the section for "Applying Environmental Damage like it isn't an Energy Effect" I believe it is on page 986 of the DMG.

The absence of an alternative description doesn't make applying the effects of the spell to all acid effects the right description.

Dec 18, 2012 -- 7:01AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Concerning Melf's Acid Arrow, it can, in the spell description, be neutralized, so being hit with it is no different then being in an acid pit. The characcter can spend a round neutralizing the Acid, such as taking off their clothing, or jumping into a lake (not of acid), Castign an Energy Resistance: Acid spell, etc

If there were really no difference between the spell and a pit, you could dispel the pit of acid.  In fact, despite being conjured acid, the effect deals a different amount of damage to standard acid exposure, which simply underlines the other ways in which it is different (like not taking damage after you leave the pit, even though you're still soaked in acid, while the spell continues to burn you).

Dec 18, 2012 -- 7:01AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Point is most effects can be ended prematurely. The only thing that matters is if they have the effect at the start of the round. The rules concerning Concentration checks and the rules for Effects and rounds indicate that damage is rolled at the start of the round, and that (according to the final round) damage is taken at the start of the round.

They could have eneded before the start of that round as well, and as I've pointed out, the rules for effects don't indicate at all that the effect occurs at the start of a turn.  They apply just as effectively no matter when the damage occurs.

Dec 18, 2012 -- 7:01AM, MrCustomer wrote:

As for the duration. Again, and repeatedly I have said this. All that matters is the initial exposure and the end/beginning of a round.

Fall in the acid is initial exposure, you take damage. If you remain exposed to the acid you won't take more damage from that exposure until the end of that round.

At the start of the next round, at any time that you are exposed to acid again, you will take Damage immediately.

Funnily enough, though, the rules don't state that as being the case for continuous effects.  Obviously it's true for instant effects (like a sword blow, or an instantaneous spell), since there's no other point at which they can apply, but there doesn't appear to be anything stating the timing of application for ongoing effects.

Dec 18, 2012 -- 7:01AM, MrCustomer wrote:

It doesn't matter if you started in the acid and soaked in it for an entire round, if you were dipped in and out of it as a move action, if you were tied to a rope and dipped into the acid a dozen times during a round. You will only take 10d6 damage per round of exposure.   

Again, starting a round in the acid is no different then falling into it later, you take damage as soon as you are exposed to it during a round.

So tell me, what sense does it make to apply 10d6 points of damage for initial exposure to acid by being dipped in on a rope, but nothing for the subsequent dippings during the same round?

To make a firm claim about the situation, it needs to be either covered by a valid rules statement, or be the only logical possibility, and neither one seems to be the case.  If it doesn't make sense to apply the effect of an entire round of exposure (as it must be, since that's all you take even if you spend an entire round completely immersed) immediately, and the rules don't actually state it to be so, why should we consider it to be the standard?

Slagger, Since a pit of Acid behaves in every way as Melf's Acid Arrow (which can be neutralized just as easily) then treating it with the same rules, the only actual rules, is logical and obvious.

Funnily enough, though, the rules don't state that as being the case for continuous effects.  Obviously it's true for instant effects (like a sword blow, or an instantaneous spell), since there's no other point at which they can apply, but there doesn't appear to be anything stating the timing of application for ongoing effects.

Well with Accid arror, which works identically, damage is taken instantly on the first and final rounds of the effect, why wouldn't it on every other round of effect?

My rule is consistant in every case. Start of exposure, Start of round, always consistant.

Your idea is to have the damage occur when exactly? A random, unpredictable and indeterminant point sometime during the round?         

Any of these effects can be ended at any time for any reason, pit of acid, can teleport out at beginning of turn, Melf's acid arrow, can pull robe over head or jump in a pool of water. So the effect can be ended at any unforeseen time during any point in the round. So when to take the damage is completely unknown.

Unknowns can't be consistant. 

The rules I outlined are the only consistant and known point in which can be determined. It is consistant in every single scenerio

So tell me, what sense does it make to apply 10d6 points of damage for initial exposure to acid by being dipped in on a rope, but nothing for the subsequent dippings during the same round?

Does it make any sense that being dipped in and out of the same pool of acid would do more damage then soaking in it?   Besides when you are pulled out of a liquid you are still wet.

That and D&D has 50 tonne dragons flying, I believe it's acid rules before I would believe on of those could actually get off the ground.
       
    

Dec 20, 2012 -- 7:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

1- then like you can use DR/- again grapple, constrict, traps of Roof collapses and attacks with weapons then you can apply the same rule to all and i only need make a reflex save like in the trap and take the half damage from the grapple, constrict, the trap and the attacks great your logic is the best for characters with improved evasion.

2- The Rule of Acid Effect not apply in attacks as described in her own rule section are for thats cases that don't have rules like what happen if i fall in a pool of acid.

3- Well under your point of view you are saying that all is an acid effect then if you are beaten for an acid storm you take the standard damage plus 1d6 damage for expose plus the save again poison???

Dec 20, 2012 -- 8:39AM, Oma012 wrote:

Dec 20, 2012 -- 7:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

1- then like you can use DR/- again grapple, constrict, traps of Roof collapses and attacks with weapons then you can apply the same rule to all and i only need make a reflex save like in the trap and take the half damage from the grapple, constrict, the trap and the attacks great your logic is the best for characters with improved evasion.

2- The Rule of Acid Effect not apply in attacks as described in her own rule section are for thats cases that don't have rules like what happen if i fall in a pool of acid.

3- Well under your point of view you are saying that all is an acid effect then if you are beaten for an acid storm you take the standard damage plus 1d6 damage for expose plus the save again poison???

1: OMa, Because that is a Damage Type.

2: Damage coming from different sources all work the same. Energy Damage is Energy Damage regardless of the source, there is no different rule for how you take the damage. I take 1d6 Acid damage from an attack with a flask of acid the same as I would take 1d6 Acid damage from falling on a small puddle of acid.

A: Roll 1d6

B: Apply Energy resistance, Weakness or Imunity, etc

C: Subtract from HPs

There is no Attack Damage rule, and you keep bringing up DR/- which would have ZERO EFFECT ON ENERGY DAMAGE

3: No, only an idiot would say something so stupid. I never said anything to that effect. I am not familiar with the rules for this "Acid Storm" 

But you do know a Fireball does 10d6 Fire Damage, It is a Fire Effect as described in the Energy section (right beside your Acid) It is an Energy Effect, as is a Flaming Sword, as is Fire Arrow, as is a Dragons Breath weapon, as is a campfire as is a torch. It does fire damage the same as any other type of fire.

Interestingly enough, a Fireball, or anything that does Fire Damage can light things on fire. So yes there is no special rules for Energy effects from different sources.

Dec 20, 2012 -- 8:57AM, MrCustomer wrote:

then i think that i understand your point of view now, you are saying that all damage doing in D&D is instant, then because the Acid effect deal damage this damage would be instant too???

The problem here is that the Entry of Acid effect dont say you deal 1d6 of damage.
it say you deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure.
an specific entry that can overlap the standard and as described here you need one round of exposure to take the damage.

Oma, that would be a point except that it says per round not "per full round", the rules consistantly made that point where ever a Full-round applies as well  when an effect comes into action at the end of a turn.

Dec 20, 2012 -- 9:33AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, that would be a point except that it says per round not "per full round", the rules consistantly made that point where ever a Full-round applies as well  when an effect comes into action at the end of a turn.

ok under the rules one round are 6 seconds of time

the entry say "you take damage per 6 seconds of exposure"

what this means in Basic English???

for my thats means that you take damage after 6 seconds of exposure or after 1 round of exposure.

Remember Specific over general then this specific entry can overlap the general rule.

Oma, I can only make one standard attack per round.

What does that mean in english, that a standard attack takes 6 seconds? or that I can only make one standard attack per 6 seconds?

How long does it take to attack with a Sword?

Because I can take 2 move actions, or a move action and an attack, so that implies 3 seconds, but then again I can make 4 attacks plus 4 AoO (with the feat and Dex) That is 8 attacks in 6 seconds, when I am limited to a single standard action. so I am confused on how long it takes to do any single attack.

My point here is that the game doesn`t run on `seconds` it works in Turns, Rounds, Standard and Move Actions, etc.
   
So to answer your question. In English it means that it deals this damage on EACH round.

Per means  To, for, or each;  for every`etc. It doesn`t mean that a full round must be spent. And infact D&D uses theses terms Full Round and 1 Round when this would apply. Like a spell with a cast time of 1 Round.

If it used the term per Full Round, then it would mean that the damage was only taken once a Full Round of exposure occured, because that would mean for each Full Round.

That is also what it meant when it stated `counts as a round of exposure` in the DMG If you were attacked twice in a round by a Dragon`s breath weapon, you would take damage for each, because each attack would `count as a round of exposure`  Each attack with an Acidic Sword `counts as a round of exposure` which means they deal the damage instantly and for each attack.

otherwise if you got attacked three times with an acidic sword you would only take the first attack`s acid damage as the acid exposure for the round. this is saying you will take the acid damage from all three attacks. Each attack counts as a round of exposure.

That also means an entire full round of exposure isn`t needed to deal the damage, if a full round was needed then the sword would only deal 1d6 damage per round regardless of how many times it struck the target.   
  

Dec 20, 2012 -- 10:28AM, MrCustomer wrote:

not this means that you can do only one standard for each 6 seconds of time.

in the same way you take damage per each 6 seconds of exposure in acid.

Dec 20, 2012 -- 10:38AM, Oma012 wrote:

Dec 20, 2012 -- 10:28AM, MrCustomer wrote:

not this means that you can do only one standard for each 6 seconds of time.

in the same way you take damage per each 6 seconds of exposure in acid.

Oma, it means you only take one damage for 10d6 on each round.


Oma, what is your definition fo the term Full-Round as opposed to the term Round?  

Dec 20, 2012 -- 10:49AM, MrCustomer wrote:

full-Round are 6 full seconds as example the time that spend a Full attack.

Round are 6 Seconds of time as example an full attack action have a duration of one round.

now you can sat too "you can take damage each round" that is the same that "you can take damage each 6 seconds" or "you can only do one attack per round" that is the same that "you can only do one attack per 6 seconds"

Dec 20, 2012 -- 7:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Slagger, Since a pit of Acid behaves in every way as Melf's Acid Arrow (which can be neutralized just as easily) then treating it with the same rules, the only actual rules, is logical and obvious.

It doesn't behave the same in every way.  Given the dramatic differences, treating the two as the same is illogical.

Dec 20, 2012 -- 7:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Well with Accid arror, which works identically, damage is taken instantly on the first and final rounds of the effect, why wouldn't it on every other round of effect?

My rule is consistant in every case. Start of exposure, Start of round, always consistant.

Your idea is to have the damage occur when exactly? A random, unpredictable and indeterminant point sometime during the round?

Any of these effects can be ended at any time for any reason, pit of acid, can teleport out at beginning of turn, Melf's acid arrow, can pull robe over head or jump in a pool of water. So the effect can be ended at any unforeseen time during any point in the round. So when to take the damage is completely unknown.

Unknowns can't be consistant. 

The rules I outlined are the only consistant and known point in which can be determined. It is consistant in every single scenerio

You also consistently know when the effect ceases to be applied, rendering it an equally valid time for application.  Likewise, applying damage per-action is similarly consistent; you take it during the relevant action.

As I noted before, end of exposure, and end of round are just as consistent application times as start of exposure, and start of round.  They're all known unambiguously.

Dec 20, 2012 -- 7:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

So tell me, what sense does it make to apply 10d6 points of damage for initial exposure to acid by being dipped in on a rope, but nothing for the subsequent dippings during the same round?

Does it make any sense that being dipped in and out of the same pool of acid would do more damage then soaking in it?   Besides when you are pulled out of a liquid you are still wet..

Exactly my point; you'd be more likely to take some of the damage towards the total for the round on each application, or suffer the damage progressively rather than take every bit of it at once since you're covered in acid that continues to burn you.

Dec 20, 2012 -- 11:10AM, Oma012 wrote:

Dec 20, 2012 -- 10:49AM, MrCustomer wrote:

full-Round are 6 full seconds as example the time that spend a Full attack.

Round are 6 Seconds of time as example an full attack action have a duration of one round.

now you can sat too "you can take damage each round" that is the same that "you can take damage each 6 seconds" or "you can only do one attack per round" that is the same that "you can only do one attack per 6 seconds"

Ok, then you agree with me that per round doesn't mean that a Full-Round or One-Round is required.

After all I can Move and Attack and then on next turn Attack and Move. Thus doing 2 attacks back to back within 6 seconds.

The difference is that a round doesn't just equal time. It is Time and Effort. I can thrust a knife as a free action (same as quickdraw) it is the effort that is the limitation. A standard attack is spent parrying and feinting to create an opening, and it could take anywhere from 0 to 4 seconds for an opening to make that thrust, it's the effort I am expending that takes the action.

So one standard action per round doesn't mean 6 seconds between each action, it is simply a measure of how much effort I can expend each round.

D&D has specific language for this, and would have said, "10d6 at the end of each Full Round of exposure" Instead it chooses not to, because you take the damage first.





  

Slagger, the "dramatic Differences" is only in the scale of damage and effort to extinguish. Otherwise they function the same.

[/quote]
You also consistently know when the effect ceases to be applied, rendering it an equally valid time for application.  Likewise, applying damage per-action is similarly consistent; you take it during the relevant action[/quote]


How do you consistantly know when the effect will end in advance?  


As for adding it (pre-action) that isn't RAW, you can go ahead and do that as a house rule, but it isn't Rules as Written, It isn't in the books and it isn't in the game. It isn't even consistant with how any other effect functions.

If you cast and effect on yourself, such as Energy Resistance: Acid as the first spell in the round, starting it's effect mid-turn, it doesn't stop working in the middle of of the final turn. You get it for the entire final round, until just before the beginning of the next turn. It doesn't matter when an effect started.

That is Rules as Written, that is how it works.  

Dec 21, 2012 -- 8:27AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Dec 20, 2012 -- 11:10AM, Oma012 wrote:

Dec 20, 2012 -- 10:49AM, MrCustomer wrote:

full-Round are 6 full seconds as example the time that spend a Full attack.

Round are 6 Seconds of time as example an full attack action have a duration of one round.

now you can sat too "you can take damage each round" that is the same that "you can take damage each 6 seconds" or "you can only do one attack per round" that is the same that "you can only do one attack per 6 seconds"

Ok, then you agree with me that per round doesn't mean that a Full-Round or One-Round is required.

After all I can Move and Attack and then on next turn Attack and Move. Thus doing 2 attacks back to back within 6 seconds.

The difference is that a round doesn't just equal time. It is Time and Effort. I can thrust a knife as a free action (same as quickdraw) it is the effort that is the limitation. A standard attack is spent parrying and feinting to create an opening, and it could take anywhere from 0 to 4 seconds for an opening to make that thrust, it's the effort I am expending that takes the action.

So one standard action per round doesn't mean 6 seconds between each action, it is simply a measure of how much effort I can expend each round.

D&D has specific language for this, and would have said, "10d6 at the end of each Full Round of exposure" Instead it chooses not to, because you take the damage first.





  

the problem here is that if you say "per round"
this mean any point during that round
but if you say "per round of exposure"
this change the context to you need the full round to fulfill the entry.

Example "you gain 10 GPs per hour of work"
this means that i only need work 1 second each hour to gain my 10 gps???

No Oma, because effects always start at the beginning of a round.

As for context, keep in mind you take full damage per round, regardless of how long you are exposed during that round. Such as an instant effect or neutralizing it.

Example, Melf's Acid Arrow. I can neutralize it, thus ending the effect. But I still take the full damage for that round. The initial Damage is dealt instantly, and the final round is dealt instantly and the caster is uneffected for the rest of the round. 

In point of fact there isn't a single Acid Effect in the game that requires a Full-Round of exposure to deal damage. 

Dec 21, 2012 -- 9:39AM, MrCustomer wrote:

ok?? a specific rule overlap a general rule?

the Acid Effect are a Specific rule and is described like that for it under the "Specific over General" this work like that

You only take damage "per round of exposure"

Melf's Acid arrow describe it in her description for it work like that.

Attack Rolls: An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent.

Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the weapon you’re using. If the result is at least as high as the target’s AC, you hit and deal damage. (no time described then Instan)

A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target.
You must succeed on a ranged touch ATTACK to hit your target.
The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage.
For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for ANOTHER ROUND, dealing ANOTHER 2d4 points of damage IN THAT round (in what part of the round "half the damage is considered to take place while you’re taking your actions. If the last damage dealt was the final damage that the effect could deal, then the damage is over and can’t distract you. Repeated damage isn’t the same as and doesn’t count as continuous damage.").
Material Component: Powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach.
Focus: A dart.

You just blasted an entire post of gibberish.

You can determine with ABSOLUTE, UNQUESTIONED certainty that:

-You will take instant damage from the Arrow as soon as you are hit on the first round and

-that you will take instant damage at the start of the final round. When the effect ends you walk away completely uneffected from any further effects form the spell.

Additionally to roll a Concentration check against Half the damage in the second round you need to roll the damage at the start of the round to know what the DC for the check is. So you MUST roll damage at the beginning of the round in order to know what the DC of your concentration checks will be.

And half damage is not 5d6, it is full damage, 10d6 and divide the result by 2.

And name the rule where you roll damage and then divide it into sections to apply over a period of time..... No you roll damage when you take the damage and only when you take the damage. 

It isn't rocket science, the RAW are quick and simple and consistant.

 
   
  

Dec 21, 2012 -- 10:50AM, MrCustomer wrote:

then you are agree that Melf's Acid Arrow do damage as instand as described in the rules and the pool of acid do damage per round of exposure as described in the rules.

Oma, I just said that Melf's Acid Arrow is an Acid Effect that works EXACTLY the same as the pool of Acid.

You get hit with Melf's Acid Arrow and take instant damage
You fall into a pool of Acid and take instant Damage

Beginning of 2nd round you take damage from the Acid Arrow, roll Concentration check for half
Beginning of 2nd round you take damage from the pool of acid

Beginning of last round you take instand damage from acid arrow and are no long effected
Beginning of last round you take instand damage from pool, if you climb out you are no longer effected.

They both work the exact same way. 

Dec 21, 2012 -- 11:20AM, MrCustomer wrote:

again, not is an acid effect only do the same kind of damage, acid effect is a rule about to when you are in contact with that element and the standard rules dont apply.

Well if you are saying that a pool of acid deal 10d6 points of damage quote the rule that say that a pool of acid do that damage.

something like "the acid pool deal 10d6 of damage"

Oma, you can't manipulate the rules, All Acid Damage is Acid Energy, both are Acid Effects

Dec 21, 2012 -- 11:38AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, you can't manipulate the rules, All Acid Damage is Acid Energy, both are Acid Effects

Ok

1- Energy is a kind of special damage
2- Yes Acid Damage is Acid Energy
3- Not all is an Acid Effect as described in her own rules because Acid Effect is a Sub Rule of the Section of Special Conditions that is a Sub rule in the Section of Energy

For be an acid effect as described in the rules first you need work with energy, second you need work with a SPECIAL SITUATIONS and as last requirement need work with acid.

now Melf's Acid Arrow is energy, but not is a Special Situation then can't fall under an acid effect.
A pool of acid is energy, Don't are described rules about Pools of acid the fall in Special Situations and a pool of acid is acid then fall under Acid Effect.

you can say

"all acid damage is energy damage" but not "all acid damage is on Acid effect"

is like say that a SPHYNX cat have hair because is a cat and the standard cat rule say that all cats have hair ignore the Special Condition rule about the Sphynx cats dont have hair.

"all acid damage is energy damage" but not "all acid damage is on Acid effect"

You can say that, but only if you are a complete &*#@ing Idiot!

Dec 21, 2012 -- 11:53AM, MrCustomer wrote:

"all acid damage is energy damage" but not "all acid damage is on Acid effect"

You can say that, but only if you are a complete &*#@ing Idiot!

then say it to the book are well definded.

Yes it is well defined in the book, saying Melf's Acid arrow isn't an Acid Effect is stupid

Dec 21, 2012 -- 12:22PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Yes it is well defined in the book, saying Melf's Acid arrow isn't an Acid Effect is stupid

OK melf's Acid Arrow fall under a Special Conditions????

Dec 21, 2012 -- 8:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Slagger, the "dramatic Differences" is only in the scale of damage and effort to extinguish. Otherwise they function the same.

And the many differences between magical effects and mundane ones, and the type of attack, and so on.

There really isn't much basis for treating them as the same.

Dec 21, 2012 -- 8:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

How do you consistantly know when the effect will end in advance?

You don't need to know it in advance.

Dec 21, 2012 -- 8:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

As for adding it (pre-action) that isn't RAW, you can go ahead and do that as a house rule, but it isn't Rules as Written, It isn't in the books and it isn't in the game. It isn't even consistant with how any other effect functions.

The Rules Compendium contains a statement supporting it (being "considered" one way doesn't exclude it actually being that way), but if you're asking for RAW, where is the RAW stating that effects trigger at the start of each turn?

Certainly you can bring up your own reasoning, but that's true of both side here, and in neither case is it a RAW statement of fact.

Dec 21, 2012 -- 8:45AM, MrCustomer wrote:

If you cast and effect on yourself, such as Energy Resistance: Acid as the first spell in the round, starting it's effect mid-turn, it doesn't stop working in the middle of of the final turn. You get it for the entire final round, until just before the beginning of the next turn. It doesn't matter when an effect started.

That's certainly true for effects that have a certain duration in rounds, though it brings up its own problem in measure time, since you don't know which exact round is supposed to be the final one.

For example, if the resist energy (acid) spell lasts 7 rounds, and you cast it in round 1 (that is, on your first turn), does it end on round 7 or round 8?  Can you show where the RAW clarify it?

Dec 21, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Oma012 wrote:

Dec 21, 2012 -- 12:22PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Yes it is well defined in the book, saying Melf's Acid arrow isn't an Acid Effect is stupid

OK melf's Acid Arrow fall under a Special Conditions????

No "special condition" at all, it is a classic example of Acid, since it simply summons Acid and then exposes the target with a Ranged Touch Attack. The target is hit with acid and exosed "per round" from the effect. The only variable here is the potency of the acid (how much damage and how many rounds until it finishes reacting)  

The basis is that there are 5 energy types in D&D. Sure magical effects have more intensity (Fireball for 10d6 as an example) but other then that the resulting damage remains the same.

As for Melf's Acid arrow, once cast the acid is mundane or the same as mundane, You summon acid and throw it at the target (ranged touch) he is now soaked with acid that he can easily neutralize with mundane means.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is different then if he spilt a large beaker of acid on himself. The spell is identical to any mundane use of acid once applied.

The Rules Compendium contains a statement supporting it (being "considered" one way doesn't exclude it actually being that way), but if you're asking for RAW, where is the RAW stating that effects trigger at the start of each turn?

Certainly you can bring up your own reasoning, but that's true of both side here, and in neither case is it a RAW statement of fact.

RAW is that an effect starts at the beginning of a turn and lasts until just before the beginning of the same turn, and really name an effect that doesn't function like this.

How about Hold Person? You get a Will Save to break free, but when does the spell take effect on a turn and when can you break free?

The answer is the effect starts at the beginning of a turn, Hold Person comes into effect and THEN you can make a Will save to break free. On a successful Will Save you will be free on the next turn.

-Start of turn: Hold person comes into effect, Make will save, Turn Ends
-Next turn: If you made your save last turn you can now move freely      

Want RAW?  " Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

If each round ends just before the next turn, then it becomes obvious that they begin at the start of each turn, since we are talking a continual effect (or continual while swimming in acid) Each round will come into effect as soon as the proceeding round ends

That's certainly true for effects that have a certain duration in rounds, though it brings up its own problem in measure time, since you don't know which exact round is supposed to be the final one.

For example, if the resist energy (acid) spell lasts 7 rounds, and you cast it in round 1 (that is, on your first turn), does it end on round 7 or round 8?  Can you show where the RAW clarify it?

If it is a standard action to cast it often includes the round in which you cast it. Except some notable 1-round durations (True Strike) which are generally writen in such as way as "before the end of your next turn" to avoid misinterpretation. (since you can't cast and attack in the same round it would suck otherwise)

For example, with Resist Energy (Acid) I can cast it as a standard action and then make a move action to walk through an Acid hazard. So it's duration includes the round it is cast.

With Spells, such as Summon Monster, with 1-Round or more cast times, their duration starts on the following round after casting. Ie if Summon Monster lasts for 5 rounds, then I spend 1 round casting it, and on the following round (when it appears) it will stay for 5 rounds.

That means casting a Spell as a Standard Action (say Resist Energy) includes the round in which it is cast, I don't know of any particular rule for or against casting a standard action spell so that it comes into effect on the following turn, though I suppose you could ready an action to cast it later, effectively causing it to occur on the following round.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 7:31AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Dec 21, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Oma012 wrote:

Dec 21, 2012 -- 12:22PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Yes it is well defined in the book, saying Melf's Acid arrow isn't an Acid Effect is stupid

OK melf's Acid Arrow fall under a Special Conditions????

No "special condition" at all, it is a classic example of Acid, since it simply summons Acid and then exposes the target with a Ranged Touch Attack. The target is hit with acid and exosed "per round" from the effect. The only variable here is the potency of the acid (how much damage and how many rounds until it finishes reacting)  

then sorry but this dont is an acid effect this melf's acid arrow do acid damage and have her own rules , acid effect come in play when a character interacts with acid and no rules exist, as example if a character fall in a pool of acid.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 8:20AM, MrCustomer wrote:

RAW is that an effect starts at the beginning of a turn and lasts until just before the beginning of the same turn, and really name an effect that doesn't function like this.

You haven't provided any RAW statement that an effect starts at the beginning of a turn, and only a specific type of effect is stated as lasting until just before the beginning of the same turn.

In fact, according to the Rules Compendium, the effects of damage are over if you've already taken the last application of continuous damage, meaning that it ends earlier than just before the beginning of the next turn.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 8:20AM, MrCustomer wrote:

How about Hold Person? You get a Will Save to break free, but when does the spell take effect on a turn and when can you break free?

The answer is the effect starts at the beginning of a turn, Hold Person comes into effect and THEN you can make a Will save to break free. On a successful Will Save you will be free on the next turn.

It starts when the spellcaster is finished casting it, and lasts continuously; it doesn't come into effect each turn, since it never stopped applying and doesn't even apply a per-round effect.  The Will save is entirely an action on the part of the target, and has nothing to do with the spell's duration, except for potentially ending it earlier than the maximum duration.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 8:20AM, MrCustomer wrote:

" Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

If each round ends just before the next turn, then it becomes obvious that they begin at the start of each turn, since we are talking a continual effect (or continual while swimming in acid) Each round will come into effect as soon as the proceeding round ends

Quite the contrary; that determines when the entire duration of the effect ends, not when it begins or ends in any given round.  Since effects routinely begin during the middle of a round, due to requiring an action to trigger, but may end at the exact last moment of a given turn, they don't truly last a full number of rounds.  Consequently, they have absolutely no need to start at the beginning of a turn just because they eventually expire at the end of one.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 8:20AM, MrCustomer wrote:

For example, with Resist Energy (Acid) I can cast it as a standard action and then make a move action to walk through an Acid hazard. So it's duration includes the round it is cast.

And yet you don't gain the protection for the start of that round, do you?

Consider for our 7-round resist energy example, if I cast it on round 1 but it lasts until the end of round 8.  It's clearly still ending just before the end of the next turn (which is RAW), but extends into round 8 because its full 7-round duration hadn't been expended by the end of round 7 since it was cast partway through round 1.

Is there any reason this doesn't work RAW?  If you cut it one way (ending on round 7) you're shortchanging the duration, while the other way (ending on round 8 ) you're giving it long change.  Yet the RAW don't contradict either one.

Well what do you think that is the best form of use the Acid pool

Fall in the trap and take damage (10d6), trigger initiatives and dont take damage again until the next round.

Fall in the trap and trigger initiatives and take the damage(10d6) until the startof the turn.

Fall in the trap and take initial damage(1d6) and then at the start of the turn take 5d6 of damage and at the end take other 5d6.

or what do you think that is the best way??

Dec 26, 2012 -- 12:02AM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

You haven't provided any RAW statement that an effect starts at the beginning of a turn, and only a specific type of effect is stated as lasting until just before the beginning of the same turn.

I don't know what rulebook you have, but mine explains how turns and rounds and intiative order works. The thing of it is I have provided everything RaW says and you are insisting that it works by some other rule. That the rule only applies to some mythical "specific type of effect" but you haven't provided the rules for how it applies to other effects other then vague references that are nowhere near consistant. I have an actual rule, show me your rules on how exactly those effects are applied.

You keep explaining how effects could be taken at the middle or end of a turn, sometimes but not always, depending on.....but have yet to provide an actual rule that says anything of the sort. In the overwhleming absense of any rule to the contrary, it says the one I have quoted here dozens of times very clearly.

I quote a simple rule that functions, is consistant and easy. Where is your rule? 

In fact, according to the Rules Compendium, the effects of damage are over if you've already taken the last application of continuous damage, meaning that it ends earlier than just before the beginning of the next turn.

That rule confirms my explaination, the effect is resolved at the beginning of the turn, before any actions are taken.

It starts when the spellcaster is finished casting it, and lasts continuously; it doesn't come into effect each turn, since it never stopped applying and doesn't even apply a per-round effect.  The Will save is entirely an action on the part of the target, and has nothing to do with the spell's duration, except for potentially ending it earlier than the maximum duration.

The point is that the effect comes into place before the Will save is made to end it that round. This is the same as if you started your turn on fire, the effect (Fire Damage) would be taken at the beginning of the turn before you made the Reflex save to put the fire out that round. The Same if you were hit with Melf's Acid Arrow, you would take the Acid Damage at the beginning of the turn before you tried to neutralize it.

 "Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

If each round ends just before the next turn, then it becomes obvious that they begin at the start of each turn, since we are talking a continual effect (or continual while swimming in acid) Each round will come into effect as soon as the proceeding round ends"

Quite the contrary; that determines when the entire duration of the effect ends, not when it begins or ends in any given round. Since effects routinely begin during the middle of a round, due to requiring an action to trigger, but may end at the exact last moment of a given turn, they don't truly last a full number of rounds. Consequently, they have absolutely no need to start at the beginning of a turn just because they eventually expire at the end of one

Ok, another "rule" that isn't in the books. It might make for a nice house rule, but it is not in the books.

There is a rule however that refers to when that damage would be rolled, it is under the concentration rules. If you cast a spell while taking damage from a continual effect you have to make a concentration roll, the DC being for Half Damage.

The only way to know the "half damage" for the DC is to have rolled for Full Damage at the beginning of the round. So before the player has taken any actions at all (he may or may not cast) the DM has already rolled for full damage.

You take the Damage when you roll it! Stop! before you start with "you can roll the damage and then divide it up or take it later.." In the complete and absolute absense of any such rule, and there is no such rule for your method. You roll the damage when you take it. So the concentration rules confirm absolutely that Damage is taken at the beginning of a turn.
   

And yet you don't gain the protection for the start of that round, do you?

Consider for our 7-round resist energy example, if I cast it on round 1 but it lasts until the end of round 8.  It's clearly still ending just before the end of the next turn (which is RAW), but extends into round 8 because its full 7-round duration hadn't been expended by the end of round 7 since it was cast partway through round 1.

Is there any reason this doesn't work RAW?  If you cut it one way (ending on round 7) you're shortchanging the duration, while the other way (ending on round 8 ) you're giving it long change.  Yet the RAW don't contradict either one.

According to Raw the effect ends "just before the same initiative count that they began on" which means if you cast the hypothetical 7 round spell as a standard action it includes the round you are in. 7 rounds including the one you cast it in.

You've just said that 7 round spells have 8 rounds. No they don't, they have 7 rounds. If they were measuring duration liek your example then they would measure them in Move Actions (ie 14 move actions) It doesn't matter when the effect begins on the first turn it will always end at the same time on the final turn. 

Yes this means you can and often do loose half a turn of the effect, consider this as being like the general rule to round down if it helps.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

I don't know what rulebook you have, but mine explains how turns and rounds and intiative order works. The thing of it is I have provided everything RaW says and you are insisting that it works by some other rule. That the rule only applies to some mythical "specific type of effect" but you haven't provided the rules for how it applies to other effects other then vague references that are nowhere near consistant. I have an actual rule, show me your rules on how exactly those effects are applied.

Yet you lack a rule stating how effects start on each turn as you've claimed.

You have an actual rule which describes one situation, and I agree that it is correct for that situation.  It's the claim that it applies to other situations or says more than it states that I dispute.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

You keep explaining how effects could be taken at the middle or end of a turn, sometimes but not always, depending on.....but have yet to provide an actual rule that says anything of the sort. In the overwhleming absense of any rule to the contrary, it says the one I have quoted here dozens of times very clearly.

That's simply a result of their starting time (when the action that triggered them occurs) and their duration, which is measured in rounds, but not linked to turns in any explicit sense.

I never claimed it was literally RAW, simply one valid interpretation in the absence of any specific rules.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

That rule confirms my explaination, the effect is resolved at the beginning of the turn, before any actions are taken.

There is nothing suggesting that the last application of damage must have occurred during the current turn.

If the damage finished at the start of the turn, how can it also finish at the end of the turn?

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The point is that the effect comes into place before the Will save is made to end it that round. This is the same as if you started your turn on fire, the effect (Fire Damage) would be taken at the beginning of the turn before you made the Reflex save to put the fire out that round. The Same if you were hit with Melf's Acid Arrow, you would take the Acid Damage at the beginning of the turn before you tried to neutralize it.

The effect of hold person will (almost) always come into effect before your turn even begins.  It doesn't apply any specific effect per-round, but simply lasts perpetually until the entire duration expires or until you manage to throw it off.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Ok, another "rule" that isn't in the books. It might make for a nice house rule, but it is not in the books.

There is a rule however that refers to when that damage would be rolled, it is under the concentration rules. If you cast a spell while taking damage from a continual effect you have to make a concentration roll, the DC being for Half Damage.

The only way to know the "half damage" for the DC is to have rolled for Full Damage at the beginning of the round. So before the player has taken any actions at all (he may or may not cast) the DM has already rolled for full damage.

You don't have to have rolled for the damage at the start of anyone's turn to produce that result.  For the very first moment of exposure you'll always have the previous application of damage from which you can determine half damage, until you replace it with the next application of damage.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

You take the Damage when you roll it! Stop! before you start with "you can roll the damage and then divide it up or take it later.." In the complete and absolute absense of any such rule, and there is no such rule for your method. You roll the damage when you take it. So the concentration rules confirm absolutely that Damage is taken at the beginning of a turn.

There's no rule stating that you take damage as soon as it's rolled, either.  That's one of those unanswered sections; the only logical answer for instant effects (such as instantaneous spells) is to apply it at that moment since there is no other moment, but that's not true for continuous damage.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

According to Raw the effect ends "just before the same initiative count that they began on" which means if you cast the hypothetical 7 round spell as a standard action it includes the round you are in. 7 rounds including the one you cast it in.

There isn't a rule indicating whether to include or exclude the round in which the spell began, so they're equally valid possibilities from a RAW standpoint.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

You've just said that 7 round spells have 8 rounds. No they don't, they have 7 rounds. If they were measuring duration liek your example then they would measure them in Move Actions (ie 14 move actions)

I've said it lasts 7 and a half rounds (half of round 1, plus the 7 rounds that follow), whereas you've said it lasts 6 and a half rounds half of round 1, plus the 6 rounds that follow).  Neither one is literally a 7-round duration.  It's simply a question of whether you trim the duration off too early, or too late.

I would be inaccurate to measure in move actions, since a move action isn't truly half a round any more than a standard action is half a round.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 9:02AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Yes this means you can and often do loose half a turn of the effect, consider this as being like the general rule to round down if it helps.

Yet it makes just as much sense to "round it up", and there isn't a specific rule for rounding durations up or down (obviously it doesn't come under the general fractions rule, since the odd duration only occurs because we're specifically obeying the "end-of-turn" rule).

If it's okay to lose half a round, it's equally okay to gain half a round.

Slagger, because it is no different then the order of opperation that happens when hit with Melf's acid arrow, hit by Alchemists fire or falling into the pit. Let use Amchemists fire and assume you are covered in flamable materials so that you will keep burning (don't complain if you wrapped yourself in oily rags as a fashion statement)

Round 1
Enemy: throws Alchemists fire at you, 1d6 Damage
Your turn: you try to put it out as a full round action, fail save.

Round 2
Enemy's turn: you take 1d6 fire damage.
Your turn:.... 

And as a trap

-You step on the trap, get hit with flask, take 1d6 fire damage, if you have a move left the DM may allow you to do a full-round action as a move action to attempt to put it out, but otherwise you are on fire. (we assume you fail the save anyways for this example)

-Your next turn (start of a new round) you are on fire so take fire damage, you may try to put it out as a full round action to prevent further damage next round.

The only difference is that if you step on a trap you don't get a full round action before the next turn ussually (unles a DM allows you to roll and put the fire out as a standard action in lie of a full round action)

If it's okay to lose half a round, it's equally okay to gain half a round

Half a turn, not half a round, there is a significant difference since other peoples turns occur between rounds.

loosing half a turn as opposed to gaining an entire round is a significant difference, especially for spells cast on others and "mass" spells cast on multiple targets, you are neglecting everyone elses turn between each of yours. 

A Half turn does not equal One round.
  

Dec 26, 2012 -- 12:22PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Let use Amchemists fire and assume you are covered in flamable materials so that you will keep burning (don't complain if you wrapped yourself in oily rags as a fashion statement)

Round 1
Enemy: throws Alchemists fire at you, 1d6 Damage
Your turn: you try to put it out as a full round action, fail save.

Round 2
Enemy's turn: you take 1d6 fire damage.
Your turn:....

I would agree with that, depending on when you apply the damage during the enemy's turn.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 12:22PM, MrCustomer wrote:

And as a trap

-You step on the trap, get hit with flask, take 1d6 fire damage, if you have a move left the DM may allow you to do a full-round action as a move action to attempt to put it out, but otherwise you are on fire. (we assume you fail the save anyways for this example)

-Your next turn (start of a new round) you are on fire so take fire damage, you may try to put it out as a full round action to prevent further damage next round.

The only difference is that if you step on a trap you don't get a full round action before the next turn ussually (unles a DM allows you to roll and put the fire out as a standard action in lie of a full round action)

But here we encounter the same question; why should you take the damage at the start of your next turn as opposed to any other time?

Dec 26, 2012 -- 12:22PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Half a turn, not half a round, there is a significant difference since other peoples turns occur between rounds.

loosing half a turn as opposed to gaining an entire round is a significant difference, especially for spells cast on others and "mass" spells cast on multiple targets, you are neglecting everyone elses turn between each of yours.

A Half turn does not equal One round.

You're right that I was talking only in terms of the "active" part of the turn, but you're not gaining an entire round relative to an exact count in rounds, and the effect on that actual time is much further askew if you end at round 7 rather than round 8.

In terms of absolute time (independent of initiative turns), you're further off an exact 42 seconds (7 rounds) by losing the first part of your turn, since everyone else's turn overlaps with yours; the chunk you lose out of your own turn is much larger than the small amounts of time represented by the difference in initiative scores.  It's only in terms of relative actions in initiative that you turn it the other way round.

So while you do gain an entire round of actions within the duration of the effect (though only as the difference between the long and short counts), you don't gain anywhere near a full round in terms of actual time; cutting the duration short removes a sizeable chunk, while cutting it long adds only the tiniest amount.

Slagger, the reason for the start of the round is it

A: Prevents most exploits and cheats, such as Oma's 3 or 4 turn rounds, and the idea that you can get out to prevent damage despite being in for multiple rounds.

B: Is always consistant. The beginning of a round is the only time with absolute certainty that we can say the effect is active. Any effect can be Cured, Dismissed, Dispelled, Saved or otherwise Neutralized at any point in the future. ie on fire, character can jump in the lake, drop and roll, be hit with a ice/water spell, die, etc.

It makes sense that the Damage should be applied at the only time during a round when duration isn't a variable, the only time that it isn't a variable is at the beginning of the round.

C: It works with the mechanics of the game, such as taking a full rounf action to neutralize the effect (Hold person's will save, Putting out a fire) or the concentration rules.


As for turns vs rounds, I think you are forgetting that a spell can and ussually does effect other players, even the whole party.

Lets say I cast Haste on my party, the whole party of 5. That round I and the entire party gains +1 on attack rolls (such as made during AoO) and the +1 AC and +1 Reflex save against all the attacks.

Since that 1st round is until my next turn, every single memeber of my party gets the +1 Attack, and Extra Attack, double Movement, +1 Save for that 1st round. Every enemy attack against the party and against You benifits.

So lets say all 8 enemies attack you upon seeing that you are a powerful caster, and because of the +1 AC they all miss, in addition your entire Party uses the Full Attack action, with +1 attack plus an extra attack at full bonuses.

The problem is that you are equating Turn and Round, a Round includes the turns and actions of your allies and opponents, a Turn does not. And while a Round represents 6 seconds of time, a Turn represents Effort that you can expend in that time. Time and Effort are the two components that determine what an action is..

Your half turn, 1 action, does not equal the combined actions and effort of every other person in your party and your opponents, and even if you were to not round down, 0.05 does not round up to 1 either.   

Dec 27, 2012 -- 7:46AM, MrCustomer wrote:

A: Prevents most exploits and cheats, such as Oma's 3 or 4 turn rounds, and the idea that you can get out to prevent damage despite being in for multiple rounds.

I will agree that the damage should apply for exposure, it just doesn't need to be applied at the start of the turn for that.

Dec 27, 2012 -- 7:46AM, MrCustomer wrote:

B: Is always consistant. The beginning of a round is the only time with absolute certainty that we can say the effect is active. Any effect can be Cured, Dismissed, Dispelled, Saved or otherwise Neutralized at any point in the future. ie on fire, character can jump in the lake, drop and roll, be hit with a ice/water spell, die, etc.

It makes sense that the Damage should be applied at the only time during a round when duration isn't a variable, the only time that it isn't a variable is at the beginning of the round.

I would consider that an argument against it, since we're talking about continuous damage.  If the effect of ongoing exposure is countered early, why are you still taking full damage?  The fact that it consistently deals full damage is inconsistent with the variable nature of exposure.

For example, an initial acid pit exposure for the round that deals 10d6 damage theoretically represents the effect of the entire 6 seconds of time that follows (follows, that is, if you apply the effect at the start of the round), and you don't take further damage from exposure to the acid until the time covered by that damage has passed (which then covers the time after it).

It's one of the more compelling reasons to apply damage per-action, since it provides a more logical relationship between the time and the damage.  There is, naturally, the possibility that someone might be saved before their turn allowed them any actions, though I don't think this would be illogical; it would simply represent someone saving them so quickly that they didn't suffer any meaningful damage.

Dec 27, 2012 -- 7:46AM, MrCustomer wrote:

C: It works with the mechanics of the game, such as taking a full rounf action to neutralize the effect (Hold person's will save, Putting out a fire) or the concentration rules.

The exact mechanics work with it no matter which way you cut it (it's irrelevant for saving against hold person, and produces equally valid alternatives for the others).

Dec 27, 2012 -- 7:46AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The problem is that you are equating Turn and Round, a Round includes the turns and actions of your allies and opponents, a Turn does not. And while a Round represents 6 seconds of time, a Turn represents Effort that you can expend in that time. Time and Effort are the two components that determine what an action is..

Your half turn, 1 action, does not equal the combined actions and effort of every other person in your party and your opponents, and even if you were to not round down, 0.05 does not round up to 1 either.

Turns overlap on the conceptual level, even if they don't overlap mechanically, since everyone is assumed to really be taking all their actions at once in spite of the necessary artifice of turns in making the game functional.  So, when you're discussing matters of the true amount of time involved, you get a much larger "cost" in true time from losing one of your own actions than you gain from extending the effect across your allies' turns, even though the mechanical effect of reaching into those other turns is greater.

And why argue about the loss or gain of effort rather than time?  No matter which way you rule it, the effect on effort applies equally for everyone and for every effect.  Allies, enemies, positive effects, and negative effects are all comparably affected no matter which method you use.

Dec 28, 2012 -- 7:35AM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

  I would consider that an argument against it, since we're talking about continuous damage.  If the effect of ongoing exposure is countered early, why are you still taking full damage?  The fact that it consistently deals full damage is inconsistent with the variable nature of exposure

If we go that route, then I would point out how a Dragon could never fly because it's aerodynamics and wieght, it's wings could never achieve a high enough wind speed by flapping to allow a creature that big to fly, even if they were 10 times longer, buzzing like a hummingbird and breaking the sound barrier, they wouldn't acheive flight. We need to accept that the game needs working mechanics over real physics.

In the case of the acid, I justify the "inconsistancy with the variable nature of exposure" with the fact that if the acid would have killed you, then you would never have finished the action. And really if you want to argue realism, then why isn't the character Blinded from the acid, disoriented from the severe pain, blindness and fall and going into shock? We are talking of acid that would instantly kill a man and disolve his bones in under 1 second as would happen to the average human with 4 hit points when they take 10d6 acid damage.

We've already tossed credulity to the wind when we said falling into Molten lava does 20d6 damage per round, rather then "Molten lava kills you." because somehow we expect to crawl back out with only slightly singed eyebrows.

It's one of the more compelling reasons to apply damage per-action, since it provides a more logical relationship between the time and the damage

The only real reason to do this is to prevent the effect from killing you. So essentially making it less deadly, you can now take half the damage from an effect and apply the full Resistance. So you are going to have to either adjust the CR or the trap or the damage accordingly. You are forgetting the damage doesn't just reflect a "realistic model of how acid works" but also the challenge and level appropriate deadliness. Your change made it less deadly so lets change it from CR 8 down to CR 6.

Or else change it to 7d6 per Action and allow them to add Resistance each time.
  

Dec 28, 2012 -- 7:35AM, Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

Turns overlap on the conceptual level, even if they don't overlap mechanically, since everyone is assumed to really be taking all their actions at once in spite of the necessary artifice of turns in making the game functional.  So, when you're discussing matters of the true amount of time involved, you get a much larger "cost" in true time from losing one of your own actions than you gain from extending the effect across your allies' turns, even though the mechanical effect of reaching into those other turns is greater.

That is my point however, if you cast a spell it effects not only yourself but everyone else. and the benifit of most spells exists outside of your turn. An AC buff for example protects you from all enemy attacks made against you during that entire round because every single enemy has a turn after yours during the round. You really can't argue that you didn't get a full round of protection from Mage Armor or Magic Circle against Evil.

Or even Haste, Since it gives everyone in your party a full 1st round, Including Yourself. Since you do in fact gain the +1 Attack, +1 AC, extra attack on a full round attack, and double movement for that round. Lets review it.


1st round:

-Cast Haste.
-Can't make an attack or full round attack since you cast a spell so the +1 attack and extra attack don't apply
-Move double your speed, since you have a move action left.
+1 AC against every enemy attack this round, +1 Attacks (in case you make an AoO) 
-all allies get Haste for entire round

Round 2:

-Cast Hold Person.
-Can't make an attack or full round attack since you cast a spell so the +1 attack and extra attack don't apply
-Move double your speed, since you have a move action left
+1 AC against every enemy attack this round, +1 Attacks (in case you make an AoO)
-all allies get Haste for entire round

Wait, round 2 is identical! so you didn't in fact loose half a round of effect by casting the spell. You would be stretching it to say you are loosing even .05 of a round, especially if the effect targets someone else in which case it will do the full effect for that many rounds (ie Melfs Acid arrow will do 3 rounds of damage so arguing that you are loosing half a round and therefore shoud get 4 rounds is rediculous)

Dec 28, 2012 -- 9:50AM, MrCustomer wrote:

In the case of the acid, I justify the "inconsistancy with the variable nature of exposure" with the fact that if the acid would have killed you, then you would never have finished the action. And really if you want to argue realism, then why isn't the character Blinded from the acid, disoriented from the severe pain, blindness and fall and going into shock? We are talking of acid that would instantly kill a man and disolve his bones in under 1 second as would happen to the average human with 4 hit points when they take 10d6 acid damage.

We've already tossed credulity to the wind when we said falling into Molten lava does 20d6 damage per round, rather then "Molten lava kills you." because somehow we expect to crawl back out with only slightly singed eyebrows.

Even if the situation has elements that strain believability (like not modelling location damage such as blindness, and presumably wrapping the effects of pain and shock into general hit points), it doesn't mean that you choose to apply the method that makes it even less believable.

While the degree of damage is certainly enough to kill any normal human before they could complete an action (even split down to per-action damage), we're potentially dealing with adventurers who have relatively superhuman levels.

Dec 28, 2012 -- 9:50AM, MrCustomer wrote:

The only real reason to do this is to prevent the effect from killing you. So essentially making it less deadly, you can now take half the damage from an effect and apply the full Resistance. So you are going to have to either adjust the CR or the trap or the damage accordingly. You are forgetting the damage doesn't just reflect a "realistic model of how acid works" but also the challenge and level appropriate deadliness. Your change made it less deadly so lets change it from CR 8 down to CR 6.

Or else change it to 7d6 per Action and allow them to add Resistance each time.

Or you split it against the resistance without applying it twice, as previously discussed.

If we were actually trying to be realistic, though, a spell that provides you resistance to acid should be more effective than it truly is against a continuous acid effect, since it's blocking the continuous accumulation of damage across that entire round of time.  It's kind of a case where the mechanics of the game are rubbing up against what reality is saying "should" happen.

Dec 28, 2012 -- 10:58AM, MrCustomer wrote:

That is my point however, if you cast a spell it effects not only yourself but everyone else. and the benifit of most spells exists outside of your turn. An AC buff for example protects you from all enemy attacks made against you during that entire round because every single enemy has a turn after yours during the round. You really can't argue that you didn't get a full round of protection from Mage Armor or Magic Circle against Evil.

You can certainly argue it; enemies could have readied to attack you before the spell was cast, or could have attack you with attacks of opportunity because you were casting a spell (if you're not careful).  And on that real time level, the actions of any enemies that go before you in initative likewise overlap with your turn.

Dec 28, 2012 -- 10:58AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Wait, round 2 is identical! so you didn't in fact loose half a round of effect by casting the spell. You would be stretching it to say you are loosing even .05 of a round, especially if the effect targets someone else in which case it will do the full effect for that many rounds (ie Melfs Acid arrow will do 3 rounds of damage so arguing that you are loosing half a round and therefore shoud get 4 rounds is rediculous)

Round 2 isn't identical, since you didn't cast haste, and you've got the benefit of haste's protection against enemies that attack you before your turn or before the spell is completed, unlike round 1.

As for Melf's acid arrow, you're arguing it by using the conclusion as evidence, since the amount of total damage the spell deals is based on the number of rounds it lasts, not the other way around.  If it is supposed to last into that round, that's the correct damage, and arguing that you should lose a round of effect is consequently what's ridiculous.

As a slight aside, it's less beneficial than you might think to gain the longer duration beyond a certain number of rounds, since encounters can often be resolved before the spell's full effect applies.  Not, however, that this is a real issue, due to the effect applying equally to all spellcasters and spells (and to other effects with a certain duration in rounds).