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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 9:20PM
#391
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2001
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Slagger, there are specific rules in the game, one could debate endlessly the merits of additional rules, but here I am referenceing the specific rules that are in the book. These are the rules the book has. Now find the section that has different rules and quote them, you know the section for "Applying Environmental Damage like it isn't an Energy Effect" I believe it is on page 986 of the DMG.
The absence of an alternative description doesn't make applying the effects of the spell to all acid effects the right description.
Concerning Melf's Acid Arrow, it can, in the spell description, be neutralized, so being hit with it is no different then being in an acid pit. The characcter can spend a round neutralizing the Acid, such as taking off their clothing, or jumping into a lake (not of acid), Castign an Energy Resistance: Acid spell, etc
If there were really no difference between the spell and a pit, you could dispel the pit of acid. In fact, despite being conjured acid, the effect deals a different amount of damage to standard acid exposure, which simply underlines the other ways in which it is different (like not taking damage after you leave the pit, even though you're still soaked in acid, while the spell continues to burn you).
Point is most effects can be ended prematurely. The only thing that matters is if they have the effect at the start of the round. The rules concerning Concentration checks and the rules for Effects and rounds indicate that damage is rolled at the start of the round, and that (according to the final round) damage is taken at the start of the round.
They could have eneded before the start of that round as well, and as I've pointed out, the rules for effects don't indicate at all that the effect occurs at the start of a turn. They apply just as effectively no matter when the damage occurs.
As for the duration. Again, and repeatedly I have said this. All that matters is the initial exposure and the end/beginning of a round.
Fall in the acid is initial exposure, you take damage. If you remain exposed to the acid you won't take more damage from that exposure until the end of that round.
At the start of the next round, at any time that you are exposed to acid again, you will take Damage immediately.
Funnily enough, though, the rules don't state that as being the case for continuous effects. Obviously it's true for instant effects (like a sword blow, or an instantaneous spell), since there's no other point at which they can apply, but there doesn't appear to be anything stating the timing of application for ongoing effects.
It doesn't matter if you started in the acid and soaked in it for an entire round, if you were dipped in and out of it as a move action, if you were tied to a rope and dipped into the acid a dozen times during a round. You will only take 10d6 damage per round of exposure.
Again, starting a round in the acid is no different then falling into it later, you take damage as soon as you are exposed to it during a round.
So tell me, what sense does it make to apply 10d6 points of damage for initial exposure to acid by being dipped in on a rope, but nothing for the subsequent dippings during the same round?
To make a firm claim about the situation, it needs to be either covered by a valid rules statement, or be the only logical possibility, and neither one seems to be the case. If it doesn't make sense to apply the effect of an entire round of exposure (as it must be, since that's all you take even if you spend an entire round completely immersed) immediately, and the rules don't actually state it to be so, why should we consider it to be the standard?
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 7:02AM
#392
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Slagger, Since a pit of Acid behaves in every way as Melf's Acid Arrow (which can be neutralized just as easily) then treating it with the same rules, the only actual rules, is logical and obvious. Funnily enough, though, the rules don't state that as being the case for continuous effects. Obviously it's true for instant effects (like a sword blow, or an instantaneous spell), since there's no other point at which they can apply, but there doesn't appear to be anything stating the timing of application for ongoing effects.
Well with Accid arror, which works identically, damage is taken instantly on the first and final rounds of the effect, why wouldn't it on every other round of effect?
My rule is consistant in every case. Start of exposure, Start of round, always consistant.
Your idea is to have the damage occur when exactly? A random, unpredictable and indeterminant point sometime during the round?
Any of these effects can be ended at any time for any reason, pit of acid, can teleport out at beginning of turn, Melf's acid arrow, can pull robe over head or jump in a pool of water. So the effect can be ended at any unforeseen time during any point in the round. So when to take the damage is completely unknown.
Unknowns can't be consistant.
The rules I outlined are the only consistant and known point in which can be determined. It is consistant in every single scenerio
So tell me, what sense does it make to apply 10d6 points of damage for initial exposure to acid by being dipped in on a rope, but nothing for the subsequent dippings during the same round?
Does it make any sense that being dipped in and out of the same pool of acid would do more damage then soaking in it? Besides when you are pulled out of a liquid you are still wet.
That and D&D has 50 tonne dragons flying, I believe it's acid rules before I would believe on of those could actually get off the ground.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 8:39AM
#393
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2011
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1- then like you can use DR/- again grapple, constrict, traps of Roof collapses and attacks with weapons then you can apply the same rule to all and i only need make a reflex save like in the trap and take the half damage from the grapple, constrict, the trap and the attacks great your logic is the best for characters with improved evasion.
2- The Rule of Acid Effect not apply in attacks as described in her own rule section are for thats cases that don't have rules like what happen if i fall in a pool of acid.
3- Well under your point of view you are saying that all is an acid effect then if you are beaten for an acid storm you take the standard damage plus 1d6 damage for expose plus the save again poison???
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 8:57AM
#394
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1- then like you can use DR/- again grapple, constrict, traps of Roof collapses and attacks with weapons then you can apply the same rule to all and i only need make a reflex save like in the trap and take the half damage from the grapple, constrict, the trap and the attacks great your logic is the best for characters with improved evasion.
2- The Rule of Acid Effect not apply in attacks as described in her own rule section are for thats cases that don't have rules like what happen if i fall in a pool of acid.
3- Well under your point of view you are saying that all is an acid effect then if you are beaten for an acid storm you take the standard damage plus 1d6 damage for expose plus the save again poison???
1: OMa, Because that is a Damage Type.
2: Damage coming from different sources all work the same. Energy Damage is Energy Damage regardless of the source, there is no different rule for how you take the damage. I take 1d6 Acid damage from an attack with a flask of acid the same as I would take 1d6 Acid damage from falling on a small puddle of acid.
A: Roll 1d6
B: Apply Energy resistance, Weakness or Imunity, etc
C: Subtract from HPs
There is no Attack Damage rule, and you keep bringing up DR/- which would have ZERO EFFECT ON ENERGY DAMAGE
3: No, only an idiot would say something so stupid. I never said anything to that effect. I am not familiar with the rules for this "Acid Storm"
But you do know a Fireball does 10d6 Fire Damage, It is a Fire Effect as described in the Energy section (right beside your Acid) It is an Energy Effect, as is a Flaming Sword, as is Fire Arrow, as is a Dragons Breath weapon, as is a campfire as is a torch. It does fire damage the same as any other type of fire.
Interestingly enough, a Fireball, or anything that does Fire Damage can light things on fire. So yes there is no special rules for Energy effects from different sources.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 9:11AM
#395
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2011
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then i think that i understand your point of view now, you are saying that all damage doing in D&D is instant, then because the Acid effect deal damage this damage would be instant too???
The problem here is that the Entry of Acid effect dont say you deal 1d6 of damage.
it say you deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure.
an specific entry that can overlap the standard and as described here you need one round of exposure to take the damage.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 9:33AM
#396
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Oma, that would be a point except that it says per round not "per full round", the rules consistantly made that point where ever a Full-round applies as well when an effect comes into action at the end of a turn.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 9:52AM
#397
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2011
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Oma, that would be a point except that it says per round not "per full round", the rules consistantly made that point where ever a Full-round applies as well when an effect comes into action at the end of a turn.
ok under the rules one round are 6 seconds of time
the entry say "you take damage per 6 seconds of exposure"
what this means in Basic English???
for my thats means that you take damage after 6 seconds of exposure or after 1 round of exposure.
Remember Specific over general then this specific entry can overlap the general rule.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 10:28AM
#398
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Oma, I can only make one standard attack per round.
What does that mean in english, that a standard attack takes 6 seconds? or that I can only make one standard attack per 6 seconds?
How long does it take to attack with a Sword?
Because I can take 2 move actions, or a move action and an attack, so that implies 3 seconds, but then again I can make 4 attacks plus 4 AoO (with the feat and Dex) That is 8 attacks in 6 seconds, when I am limited to a single standard action. so I am confused on how long it takes to do any single attack.
My point here is that the game doesn`t run on `seconds` it works in Turns, Rounds, Standard and Move Actions, etc.
So to answer your question. In English it means that it deals this damage on EACH round.
Per means To, for, or each; for every`etc. It doesn`t mean that a full round must be spent. And infact D&D uses theses terms Full Round and 1 Round when this would apply. Like a spell with a cast time of 1 Round.
If it used the term per Full Round, then it would mean that the damage was only taken once a Full Round of exposure occured, because that would mean for each Full Round.
That is also what it meant when it stated `counts as a round of exposure` in the DMG If you were attacked twice in a round by a Dragon`s breath weapon, you would take damage for each, because each attack would `count as a round of exposure` Each attack with an Acidic Sword `counts as a round of exposure` which means they deal the damage instantly and for each attack.
otherwise if you got attacked three times with an acidic sword you would only take the first attack`s acid damage as the acid exposure for the round. this is saying you will take the acid damage from all three attacks. Each attack counts as a round of exposure.
That also means an entire full round of exposure isn`t needed to deal the damage, if a full round was needed then the sword would only deal 1d6 damage per round regardless of how many times it struck the target.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 10:38AM
#399
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2011
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not this means that you can do only one standard for each 6 seconds of time.
in the same way you take damage per each 6 seconds of exposure in acid.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 10:49AM
#400
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not this means that you can do only one standard for each 6 seconds of time.
in the same way you take damage per each 6 seconds of exposure in acid.
Oma, it means you only take one damage for 10d6 on each round.
Oma, what is your definition fo the term Full-Round as opposed to the term Round?
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