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Nov 4, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Emirikol wrote:

What's still out there for long-term consequences for characters anyways?  I'm just coming back to the D&D game after a hiatus.  We've been playing WFRP where you've got:  mutations, corruption, permanent insanities, madness, permanent injuries (including the prosthetics to fix them), death (of course), disease, garish scars, noble reputation, etc.

These kinds of things tend to hijack a character. Whatever development was in store for the character gets dereailed while the player tries to rid themselves of whatever ailment they were just shackled with. If that ailment also comes with a crippling disability (and no compensating advantage), the player would usually rather just retire the character than continue to play it.

When I got back to D&D,  I don't really have those kinds of opportunities to "frighten" a character.  Heck, even level-loss is gone (not that anyone really "liked" that anyways as it didn't really make for a good roleplaying opportunity.

That's because they are two different styles of roleplaying. WHFRP is "grim and gritty" where D&D is usually "heroic fantasy." Any permanent disabilities are going to be homebrewed, and not found anywhere in the rules. As such, you are going to have to be upfront about these rules. Don't be surprised if some of your players push back against these things. If you stand firm, expect some of those players to walk.

Anyways, when a player isn't ready for the fact that a character can die in a heroic roleplaying game or suffer other consequences, and then steps into a game where it actually happens (like mine), they tend to freak out very very badly  

Exactly. If you want to avoid this, session zero is an absolute necessity. The players who remain after session zero will be better prepared for for it.

Nov 3, 2012 -- 6:13PM, YagamiFire wrote:

Kerapalli's suggestion is good. It's what I do. I have games start at a specific time and before that chaos can reign. After that time though, it's game time. Having a set time puts peoples brains into game mode once that time comes up.

While good advice, be careful in making it too official if you have players like some in my group. They are the type of players that I tell we start at 7:30 pm so that we are all there at 8 pm

Still, I do usually use some of my beginning time for discussions about RL which definitely limits it later on. Mind you, sometimes people are not really in the mood for an intense RP session and just want to roll some dice and discuss RL in which case there is little you can do about it. If it happens too often, it can be an identication that the players want something else from the game than they are getting and it is time to have that session 0. Note that I personally have that session a couple times (probably 2 per year, more when I note problems) during the campaign and not just at the start. Things change, and sometimes it helps to discuss stuff especially in campaigns that last for years.

As for lethality, that is all a matter of perspective and gaming style. D&D is best suited for heroic fantasy, meaning death is rare, there are no gruesome consequence (no maiming, no taint, no sanity) and the PCs tend to be victorious more often than not. It is also what most players will expect when they sit down to play a game. Of course, you can change your game relatively easy to cover other story styles relatively easy, but that is definitely something you need to discuss with your players beforehand.

Nov 5, 2012 -- 9:04AM, Onikani wrote:

You absolutely can't compare death in tv/movies to death in dnd.

You absolutely can.

Nov 5, 2012 -- 9:04AM, Onikani wrote:

Very typically, tv/movies are modeled closely enough to the real world that if you die it's a pretty permanent thing. In dnd, the rules vary by edition, but after level 9 or so, death is an inconvenience, not the end.

Sure, unless the players or DM find that to "cheapen" death. Removing or limiting access to Raise Dead is one of the most common house rules. And, as you say it's an inconvenience only after 9th level. I have to wonder how many people tend to play at 9th level.

Yes, death in TV and movies is a pretty permanent thing, but that's exactly why TVs and movies avoid it. Their needs are similar to those of a D&D table, in that it would be somewhat impactful to their show either to have their main characters die permanent deaths at inopportune times, or have them die trivial deaths. Not every show does this well all the time, and somes shows walk that line so much that they regularly cross into "Oh, come on" territory (by over use of deus ex machina or by killing only minor characters), but in lots of shows death for the characters is never really on the table due to real-world considerations like contracts, yet they still lose against their antagonists and the show is still tense.

So, a DM who has any qualms about killing characters of with the players overcoming setbacks with a single ritual, can look to shows and stories for ways to challenge them in real ways, without needing to kill them. Heck, even with a scroll, Raise Dead takes 12 hours to cast, and leaves the target with penalties, so if time is a factor in the larger challenge, or the party needs to be at peak ability to have a good chance of success, death might be much more than an inconvenience.