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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 1:24AM
#1
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First off, I will be the first to admit that when I saw how Wizards changed Rogues to using the Expertise system like Fighters I was fairly biased against it. I'm not sure why, but something about it just rubbed me the wrong way. After some time and actual playtesting however, I feel that it's probably a much more balanced system for Rogues than before and even gives them new abilities and actions to work with.
However, my one big pet peeve with the Rogue revamp is Sneak Attack. Previously at level 5 we had Sneak attack Damage of 6d6, now at level 10 we have up to 3d10, which is half the damage at twice the level. Personally, I am in favor of using less die to achieve high numbers, so the conversion from d6s to growing expertise die is fine, and maybe Wizards felt Rogue Sneak Attack damage was too high before and fair enough it probably was. But my single largest problem is the comparison to Fighters. At level 10 Fighters have the same pool of expertise die as Rogues, and their core damage ability "Deadly Strike" can do the same amount of damage potential but under less conditions. The condition to use Deadly Strike is hitting a creature, for Sneak Attack it is hitting a creature and either having advantage or attacking and hitting a creature in reach of a friendly, meaning Rogue's have to work harder to get only the same damage potential. The next issue is Fighters at level 6 get to make an Extra Attack which adds even more to their damage potential. My big fear is the return of the 4E essentials "Slayer" Fighter which outpaced more complex Striker classes like Rogues by doing superior damage and having to do little to achieve that kind of damage output.
Should Rogues stay with the Expertise system I would suggest a much needed boost to Sneak Attack damage, perhaps a static modifier bonus every few levels of Rogue so that players can't just take one level of Rogue and 9 levels of fighter and get a superior damaging Sneak Attack. A static modifier of +2 every couple of levels or a more significant bonus spread over every 4 or 5 levels, it would increase our damage output with Sneak Attack without adding more Die to roll and keeping the numbers easy to calculate.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 9:04PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2008
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I have to first admit I have not yet played the rogue although the most recent iteration of the Rogue does rub me the wrong way.
As someone who has just only read the rules, my impression of the Rogue is that it is a weaker fighter at worst, and a different fighter at best. There is nothing unique and different about the rogue compared to a fighter - unlike the Cleric Vs Wizard dichotomy.
I had thought the previous playtest retain the class difference between the two, so much so that they feel different, and they work differently. Are rogue merely a different type of fighters now with this new package?
What are you thoughts on this?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 9:14PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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Rogues are like baby fighters who do less damage because they are primarily a skill monkey and secondary fighter.
In other words rogues should not have expertise dice. It makes them way too similar to the fighter.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 9:16PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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The rogue needs 100 percent different maneuvers than the fighter if it is to keep expertise dice
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7 months ago ::
Nov 04, 2012 - 5:12AM
#5
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Someone on another board suggested that rogues should either have 1) faster expertise dice progression to signify that they are experts or an idea I like more, 2) rogues should get some kind of bonus to their expertise dice with Advantage.
Whether everyone agrees it or not, Sneak Attack is a part of what makes my rogue feel like a rogue. I disagree with the statement that its not a core part of their identity. I want my rogue to have a viable sneak attack and I don't feel obligated to be a backstabbity assassin by having it. Having said that, I would like a system that let sneak attack be worth more or less to different rogues. Like say, every rogue gets sneak attack and then at new levels you can either improve sneak attack for the damage monkeys and new players, or take a new manuever for rogues like me who want to be the Neutral Good version of Littlefinger.
For me, a floor of 2d6 feels right. In the current system every rogue should get a Deadly Strike same as fighters. Then if add a 1d6 for having advantage, you fix sneak attack right away.
DMAIA: DMs Against Immediate Actions - Turning 6 seconds into 15 minutes since 2008.
Vampire Class/Specialty in 2013!
Wizard: I cast Burning Hands. Rogue: I grab a torch and a can of hairspray.
I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."
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7 months ago ::
Nov 04, 2012 - 10:09AM
#6
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I believe the reason Wizards is attempting to integrate Expertise into Rogue is quite simply easier class balance and streamlined multiclassing. They've already said in rule of three I believe that they want two class levels from similar but different classes to mesh and have a continued progression. Thye example they used is if you multiclass Sorcerer/Wizard they would want the spell progression to continue as normal, not have two different spell lists.
That is the principle in effect here. Keeping the Expertise die progression balanced means A fighter who takes a few levels of Rogue won't diminish his Expertise pool and vice versa. If Rogues had a faster Expertise growth or started with higher or more die, whats to stop a Fighter from taking a level in rogue to give himself a larged headstart?
I didn't like the idea of Rogues and Expertise at all at first, but after playing some I can say as a DM and as a player it offers more modularity and balance, and potential flexibility for multiclassing without powergaming while still keeping the Rogue better at skills but they just need to do better damage with Sneak Attack.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 04, 2012 - 1:59PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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I believe the mistake here is that you're thinking in terms of 4e roles. The rogue isn't designed to be a "striker". He's designed to be a skill monkey. There's a reason the fighter gets damage as his free maneuver and the rogue gets skills. Looking purely at combat roles is ignoring the intended purpose of the rogue.
That said, D&D is a game primarily about combat, and the rogue's comparative weakness in combat isn't exactly something to smile about. Perhaps sneak attack does need a buff - adding the Dex modifier for each die spent seems like a good way to go about it, to me.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 9:18AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2010
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It's terrible, and needs options to be an effective combatant and play out the classic assassin archetype if desired; enough said. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 10:44AM
#9
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I dont like rogues using the same system as fighters it makes them feel too much like the same class. then tack on that rogues sneak attack is more restrictive they get fewer manuvers at a slower progresion rate have a lower attack bonus dont get the extra attack at 6 all to be a little better at a couple skills when the fighter could gist spend 2 feats to get those same skill bonuses.
yeah the rogue is a skill monkey but he doesnt do skills well enough to play him over a fighter who focused on skill feats.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 06, 2012 - 10:49AM
#10
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I dont necessarily have a problem with expertise dice as I see them as martial characters version of spells. That said I do think that sneak attack needs some serious work.
Honestly I think rogues should do their expertise dice in damage automatically when they have advantage. In the event they don't have advantage that's when they use their dice for it.
Rogues may be less capable than fighters in a straight up fight. But if they approach combat in the right manner they should be feared. Regardless of whether or not they are a skill monkey they need to have battlefield viability.
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