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Nov 4, 2012 -- 3:33PM, Rhenny wrote:

Nov 4, 2012 -- 3:28PM, Qmark wrote:

Nov 4, 2012 -- 3:07PM, Rhenny wrote:

I was getting sucked into a kind of mindless grind that was 90% combat and 10% other.

I wasn't aware "other" existed in MMOs.

Well..the other includes interacting with other people who are focued on trying to kill and gain levels.

9% of that 10% is trade talk about Chuck Norris.

--- back on topic ---

Your point is valid, Tim_the_Enchanter68, but not complete.  Part of what I am pointing out is that with such dramatic impact of the Ability Score charts, it resonates throughout D&D.  A Kobold with a 12 DEX and 7 STR is heavily impacted by weapon choice and thus their balance is impacted.  It's why a kobold with a sling can be frightening at level 1, but is laughable if they were to be using a club.

As a DM, fixed damage output by creatures (the good old 1d4, 1d6, 1d8 of AD&D) at low level made for easy inclusion.  Throw in a level 1 creature with a 14 DEX and a short sword, and suddenly it's a much deadlier creature than it's level indicates, just because I wanted it to be "agile."

So, by your thinking, to make sure Ability Scores don't unbalance the game, I have to go adjust the entire Bestiary to make sure creatures are not unduly modified by the D&D inflation of recent editions.  That's a hassle.

As is, the best thing they could do is scrap the idea of trying to make the Bestiary stay in line with the Ability Score charts because it doesn't serve the game well at all.  Just throw out Abiilty Scores on creatures entirely, and balance monsters according to level, XP, etc.

A good "Monster Manual" is one where the creatures are interesting, challenging, and appropriate for their level and XP value.  Those good old 2 HP, AC 7, Att +0, DMG 1d4 Kobold worth 7 XPs in AD&D were perfect.  Nothing complicated, nothing wildly unbalancing, and easy to take a handful and drop in the sandbox for their low XP values.

Now, they come with some caution.  Attack +1 (1d4+1) with +1 per Mob Tactic ally adjacent to target for 10 XP could easily be a nightmare.  That 15 Kobold room in CoC against a 1st level party in AD&D was scary enough, but not necessarily TPK inducing... but with the boosts from DEX, extra rules to apply, etc., it changes their relative value and complicates things.

At any rate, if they persist to keep the (Stat-10)/2 charts, I hope they scrap the idea of trying to balance the Bestiary to it because creatures need to be balanced against challenge and for level, not in an effort to try to adhere to player rules.

Regardless, though, the game needs to be balanced against the norm.  If the average Point Buy or 4d6 (drop 1), results in a primary of 18 (easy right now, with stat bonuses), then +4/+4 along with any class bonuses (+3 or +2) is going to be the mean.  That's +7/+4 attack/damage that the entire Bestiary needs to be balanced against.  That's a high scale.  AC 11 kobolds are hit on a 4.  85% of the time.  There won't be much challenge there except if you scale them up... creating balance inflation and departing from the beautiful simplicity of good old D&D/AD&D of old.

Not only that, if you balance against those high numbers, if I want to play a more "non-superhero" campaign, I have to account for the Bestiary inflation to make sure they stand a chance.

I know there will never be an universal agreement on the subject, but from my experience and personal perspective, the every new edition, every new class, every new feature must be bigger, better, and "badder" than the previous eventually erodes the game and departs from the simple, pure fun of what classic D&D did so well.

heh. Yeah, I type too much as is :P  I am working hard at being more concise :P

I get what you are saying, but still differ in how dramatic the impact of ability scores should be.  Beyond that, I suppose it's also a difference of opinion on what kind of selection a DM should have available from the MM/Bestiary.

For you, Kobolds being more deadly because they are finesse weapon weilding high threat creatures that should come in small  groups is fine because they should be balanced around that fact.

For me, I want a creature (Kobolds in this case) that can be used in greater quantity (classic D&D style) that are only dangerous because of their advantage in numbers.  The extra +1 attack, +1 damage, +1 AC and Mob Tactics to +5 attack might not sound like a lot, but the affect on combat and encounter building is pretty significant.

This was proven out last Friday Night where my NEXT Playtest Group spent the night only testing the new combat mechanics and features in mock encounters (normally, we roleplay).  Skirmishes against 6 Kobolds became heavily influenced by Initiative Rolls. Because player Attack Bonuses are so high now, first strikes rule the day... so to counteract that, they give kobolds these swarm bonuses... meaning that the single most important d20 in combat is the first (initiative).  The laughable 6 kobolds winning initiative suddenly become +1 to +6 attack (eventually) at 1d4+1, a much more worrisome threat (thought still pretty weak).  But make that 12 kobolds, and now we are talking serious impact.

At any rate, I still want next to be more OD&D/AD&D than 3.5E/4E.  I love the elegant simplicity they gave us with Expertise Dice to create more RP and more options, without huge impact on balance.  For Monsters, something simple and easy to adjudicate would be best, imo.  No need to ramp up Kobolds significantly from their good ol' days, just a little tweak as in Mob Tactics +2 (+2 capped).  If player attack bonuses (and damage) is toned done some, then that AC 12, Att +0, Dmg 1d4 creature in higher volume is still a fun, somewhat challenging encounter.

As for one of my all-time favorites, the Minotaur, he'd still be out there with hsi devistating attacks and clever ways to terrorize when PCs come across them... and it wouldn't have to be because specific ability scores were assigned it.  No, the easiest solution is to just design the Minotaur to be all it can be.

I guess what I am saying is that Monsters shouldn't be anything more than just that.  There's no need to complicate matters by trying to make them creature versions of player character creation.  That's way more work than needs to be done and much harder to keep balanced.