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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 1:12AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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So we spent a lot of time updating characters and looking at the new rules, and then playing them out, and even opening up some old AD&D books and reminiscing while comparing.
What really strikes me is how impacting and important ability scores have become in these newest editions, and I am not entirely sure that’s for the better.
18 being +4 on primary skills/attacks really affects the balance of the game, and it’s not hard to reach with all the new bonuses. Even 20 isn’t unheard of now, offering a whopping +5.
Compare that to good old AD&D. A 15 was a good score… and offered, at best, +1. It took a 16 STR to get to +1 damage and a whopping 17 STR to get to +1 hit. DEX required 16 to improved missile attack rolls, and it didn’t help damage to boot.
What did that mean? It meant the character was about the roleplay more than the ability scores. That lucky SOB who rolled a 17 and 15 was only marginally better than your average guy with a 15 and 14 as primary scores. Or even that Joe Average with the 13 and 12. Joe wasn’t gimped. Wasn’t unplayable at all, because ability scores weren’t the primary focus of character creation, class, skill selection, race, and, yes, that thing called roleplay is what the core of a character was.
I honestly think that much of the scaling and balancing problems with characters and the bestiary boils down to the arms race that character creation has become (and yes, I recognize there’s a 0% chance of it going away). The impact of ability scores and how it resonates through everything (from combat probabilities to skill resolution) has made stat rolling more important than class, race, skill, and feature selection – all of which should be the core of the game. Having a 20 STR will be more important to a Fighter than whatever Fighting Theme, Background, or Specialty they’ll choose… hands down.
And get off my lawn, you young high stat whippersnappers!
PS: It’s also why I think creatures (bestiary) is getting muddled, too. The effect of stats on a kobold and their weapon choice, etc., is causing some risk vs reward problems from our early (latest packet playtest) experiences. AD&D certainly had its issues with its monster manual and the difficulty of some creatures versus their XP value, but it was easier to balance. Creatures had pretty set attack and damage blocks, armor and HPs, or at least fixed enough to have a baseline to use as a guide. Now in Next, I see kobolds using finesse weapons while goblins aren’t, and the impact is dramatic. Toss a short sword on a goblin, and suddenly he’s a lot more dangerous. Give a club to a kobold and it’s dreadfully weak.
Honestly, it would be easier to just see Kobold as AC 11, HP 2, Att +0, Dmg 1d4 or by weapon, than trying to recalculate it, what it’s new XP value maybe should be, etc., simply because it found a new blade on the ground.
If ability scores didn’t impact everything so much… those mid range score given to the kobolds or goblins wouldn’t matter.
But it won’t happen. The (Score-10)/2 and all the up scaling problems (imo) it’s causing is here to stay. Still, I can’t help but think that they had it right all those years ago. Let character creation be more about the role than the rolls.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 1:23AM
#2
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Yup, this is very true. I started with 3e and always thought +1 swords felt kind of out of place. But then I went back and played 1e and had a "Oooooooh" moment. They felt natural back then, not just a flat, unfeeling bonus that it felt like in 3e. Ability scores do make a big difference now, enough to the point where most players feel that if they don't have an 18 in something it's a bad character, and this is sad. But it was a bad byproduct of something that was great, the d20 system. I love 1e and 2e, but if there's one thing 3e did right, it was the core was easy to manage (at first), and easy to manipulate numerically. Addition was very simple and uncomplicated, whereas Thac0 was a bit convoluted. So while I do agree that they make too much of an impact, I still think they are the darker part of a brighter whole.  Now could they reduce them? I don't see why not. 10-11 = 0, 12-16=1, 17-19=2, 20=3 (20 being the cap), does give a bit smoother of a curve.
My two copper.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 6:33AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2007
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A lot of us have been saying this since the second playtest packet was released.
I believe that as long as the devs insist on using this system their game is going to suffer. With each new packet and unwieldy system they introduce the less this seems to be the kind of game I want to invest in. None of the changes they have made works for me. The assertion by the devs that the core is nearly done only saddens me since their core isn't the core I was hoping to see.
I fear D&D Next isn't anything like the game I was looking for.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 8:33AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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You've definitely got a point. In fact, the older less powerful ability scores make more sense with bounded accuracy too. If a monster has AC of 14 at 1st level or 10th level, any + to hit against it is huge!
The +5, +6, +7 to hit that 1st level PCs gain in these playtest packages really unbalance them vs. the monsters. I think it would be much better to knock them down a bit.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 10:12AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I am going to try to convince my players to try this ability score chart
| ability score |
d20 mod |
dmg mod |
| 1 |
-3 |
-5 |
| 2 |
-2 |
-4 |
| 3 |
-2 |
-4 |
| 4 |
-2 |
-3 |
| 5 |
-1 |
-3 |
| 6 |
-1 |
-2 |
| 7 |
-1 |
-2 |
| 8 |
0 |
-1 |
| 9 |
0 |
-1 |
| 10 |
0 |
0 |
| 11 |
0 |
0 |
| 12 |
0 |
+1 |
| 13 |
+1 |
+1 |
| 14 |
+1 |
+2 |
| 15 |
+1 |
+2 |
| 16 |
+2 |
+3 |
| 17 |
+2 |
+3 |
| 18 |
+2 |
+4 |
| 19 |
+3 |
+4 |
| 20 |
+3 |
+5 |
paired with this armor listing
| Armor |
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AC |
| leather |
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12 + dex mod |
| displacer beast hide |
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13 + dex mod |
| Mitheral chain |
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14 + dex mod |
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| studded leather |
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14 + dex mod (max 2) |
| scale mail |
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15 + dex mod (max 2) |
| dragon scale |
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16 + dex mod (max 2) |
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| ringmail |
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14 |
| chainmail |
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16 |
| banded |
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17 |
| plate |
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18 |
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 12:29PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2012
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I'm in concurrance with this. If Next has both bounded accuracy and the current ability mods, the results will be less than glorious. The seperating damage and hit idea I like, I hope the Devs will at least consider it. Wizards are the ones who changed the ability system in the first place, no reason they can't again.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 12:44PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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Just get rid of the "to hit" modifier entirely.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 2:12PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2002
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Just get rid of the "to hit" modifier entirely.
Would you replace it with something?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 5:48PM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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Why would it need to be?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 03, 2012 - 5:51PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2004
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I really like your table, ardisiankhaine. It had never occured to me that you could split the hit bonus and damage bonus--despite looking over a bunch of AD&D material over the last month! How did you come up with your number spread?
Just a few onions short of a patch.
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