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8 months ago ::
Nov 09, 2012 - 1:10PM
#21
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Something to consider though - these are free castings. As a cleric, if I take Initiate of the Faith, I now get a FREE "cure minor", and I can spend my spell slot on something else if I need to. Even if I also use my other three 0-level slots for cure minor, I now just upped my daily healing output by 33%. That's not too shabby... And as a non-cleric, well heck, now I get to heal myself once per day without having to wait for McHoly Pants to use his action on me. I get healed, he does something more useful, and off we go.
And same with Arcane Initiate. As a wizard, only the Academic tradition can cast these spells at-will. The Battle and Illusion traditions need to spend spell slots on them. So for at least 2 of the 3 builds, this is an additional free cantrip per day. For non-wizards, this represents the first step in learning magic - as per the feat description, the ability to do a minor magical effect. This feat represents "dabbling" in magic - you are a hobbyist at best. If you are serious about using magic, you'll multiclass or take a level in wizard. A feat is a perk, a minor bonus, thats all it is. If you want to cast magic at-will, you need to put more of an investment into it.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 11, 2012 - 3:24PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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I'm still loving the Herbalism specialty. Something about having a fighter brew his own healing potions makes one feel self-sufficient and whole. Not having to rely on a cleric all the time can be a good thing.
As with the arcane and divine specialties, I agree with you there. Those spells should be at-wills and not once-a-day spells.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 4:56AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Making it so that cantrips are no longer at-will was among the worst changes in this playtest packet.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 4:57AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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I'm still loving the Herbalism specialty. Something about having a fighter brew his own healing potions makes one feel self-sufficient and whole.
Herbalism should be a profession, not a feat, IMO.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 8:36AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2012
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Herbalism should be a profession, not a feat, IMO.
@FallingIcicle - I agree. I was thinking something like an "Apothecary" background; something like that.
The monetary requirement of the Healer Specialty is the most problematic aspect. Consider this: a Potion of Healing sells in the equipment section for 50 gold. I can make a Potion of Healing for 25 gold. Starting characters get 150 gold. With 6 hours of "downtime" I can double my gold. In theory, I could keep doubling my money forever. That said, I'm pretty sure the developers didn't INTEND for this Specialty to be the "secret passage" a player can take to become a millionaire; but there you go. That said, obviously a DM could come up with whatever external circumstances necessary to stop a player from doing this, but it seems like a poorly designed feat if it REQUIRES the DM to step in and intervene.
I'm still loving the Herbalism specialty. Something about having a fighter brew his own healing potions makes one feel self-sufficient and whole.
@CrimsonAssassin - That's what I love about the concept too. I love the self-sufficiency. I also love the idea that a party doesn't require a Cleric; it provides an interesting party-dynamic where the "healer" role can be filled by different players.
Personally, I think they should reduce the potency of the items manufactured, and just remove the monetary-cost entirely (nothing wrong with the time-cost).
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 8:46AM
#26
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That said, obviously a DM could come up with whatever external circumstances necessary to stop a player from doing this, but it seems like a poorly designed feat if it REQUIRES the DM to step in and intervene.
As in a DM who simply says that the one villager who wanted and had money for your potions has bought one, and that you and your companions remain your best customers. 
Regardless of whether the current shape of herbalism is the best one or not, seeing as the developers write the game's rules for groups of players with a DM, you might as well write the rules with the DM in mind. If a campaign where they build a potion brewing emporium is what the players and the DM want, I'd say go for it. Otherwise becoming a millionaire would be hard; making the potions is only one aspect of it. If you just want to get rich, robbing a wealthy merchant might be easier than running your own business.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 9:49AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2012
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That said, obviously a DM could come up with whatever external circumstances necessary to stop a player from doing this, but it seems like a poorly designed feat if it REQUIRES the DM to step in and intervene.
As in a DM who simply says that the one villager who wanted and had money for your potions has bought one, and that you and your companions remain your best customers.
Regardless of whether the current shape of herbalism is the best one or not, seeing as the developers write the game's rules for groups of players with a DM, you might as well write the rules with the DM in mind. If a campaign where they build a potion brewing emporium is what the players and the DM want, I'd say go for it. Otherwise becoming a millionaire would be hard; making the potions is only one aspect of it. If you just want to get rich, robbing a wealthy merchant might be easier than running your own business.
@ Araith - Like I said, there's obviously any number of ways a DM could manage the potential abuses of this feat. The point I was trying to make (sorry if it was unclear) was that every other Specialties Lv.1 feat confers some kind of static benefit. However, Herbalism doesn't. Instead it provides more of an occasional opportunity.
In our playtest games so far, we haven't had any days where we've accumulated 25 gold (Herbalism's stated cost for a Potion of Healing) in a single day. This means we only use the feat once every other day.
My recommendation was to just remove the monetary-cost completely. By removing the cost, not only do you bring the feat more inline with all the other Lv.1 feats, you also close an exploitable infinite-money loop. Two birds, one stone. If removing the monetary-cost makes the feat too powerful; simply reduce the potency of the items you create.
On the other hand, I suppose it's possible that the REAL reason the developers added the gold cost to this feat because they thought it would be really cool to allow gaming groups the option to play the super-fun D&D Next sub-game "The Potion Brewing Emporium ©", but I doubt it. My guess was that it was seen as a balancing mechanism.
I totally agree the game should be designed with DM's in mind, but the silly money-loop scenario I descibed requires an extra level of DM involvement: an extra level of involment that could be easily remedied. If the DM and party want to play "The Potion Brewing Emporium ©" then they'd still be able to do so even if the feat's didn't have a stated gold cost: they could make up their own cost.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 11:03AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2012
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The monetary requirement of the Healer Specialty is the most problematic aspect. Consider this: a Potion of Healing sells in the equipment section for 50 gold. I can make a Potion of Healing for 25 gold. Starting characters get 150 gold. With 6 hours of "downtime" I can double my gold. In theory, I could keep doubling my money forever. That said, I'm pretty sure the developers didn't INTEND for this Specialty to be the "secret passage" a player can take to become a millionaire; but there you go. That said, obviously a DM could come up with whatever external circumstances necessary to stop a player from doing this, but it seems like a poorly designed feat if it REQUIRES the DM to step in and intervene.
I was wrong. I double-checked the rules under Selling Loot:
"Arms, Armor, Gear: As a general rule, weapons, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost when sold in a market." - so all those sweet, sweet Potions of Healing will never be worth full market value. Even if you were level 3, and those potions provided an extra 1d4 +2 HP, you'll never turn a profit.
@Araith - Thus ends the dream of the "The Potion Brewing Emporium ©" sub-game.
However, although the monetary-cost associated with the feat ISN'T a infinite-money loop like I feared (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa). I do stand by the fact that the monetary-cost is overly-restrictive.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 3:50PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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Making it so that cantrips are no longer at-will was among the worst changes in this playtest packet.
Basically that makes the Arcane and Divine specialties in this package something that only non-spell casters would really think about taking to get very limited spellcasting ability. I agree with you. I don't like nickle and diming with cantrips.
Perhaps they can create a specialty for non-spellcasters that gives them limited spellcasting ability like single spell uses, but they should create a better spellcasting specialty for the classes who are already spellcasters.
What I find most interesting is that in character creation, players can pick and choose feats at will if they desire, so a spellcaster could pick Durability at 1st level, find familiar at 3rd level and maximize spell at 6th level. That could be really cool. I'm hoping for more spellcasting feats to choose from.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 12, 2012 - 5:37PM
#30
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"Arms, Armor, Gear: As a general rule, weapons, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost when sold in a market." - so all those sweet, sweet Potions of Healing will never be worth full market value. Even if you were level 3, and those potions provided an extra 1d4 +2 HP, you'll never turn a profit.
That particular rule is jarring. If the potion vendor can make a living selling potions at 50 gold each, what happens when the PCs set up a booth next door selling potions at 45 gold each?
The half price rule is essentially a PC tax, which is a metagamey solution that strains immersion when it comes up. It would be better to cut the profit margin down to something more reasonable, like 10 - 20%. Enough to make the feat worthwhile, even enough that the players could go into business, but not so much that going into business would break the game.
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