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This will be news to most readers: By the end of 2010, the Pathfinder RPG had already overtaken D&D as the bestselling RPG. It would take almost half a year before industry magazine ICv2 first reported it, and several quarters more before some people were willing to accept it as fact, but internally, we already knew it was true. We'd heard it from nearly all of our hobby trade distributors; we'd heard it from buyers at book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders; we could see it using industry sales trackers such as BookScan; we were even regularly coming out on top on Amazon's bestseller charts. Each individual market we sold in had us either tied with or outselling D&D, and none of those sources counted our considerable direct sales on paizo.com. Put all of those things together, and it was clear: Pathfinder had become the first RPG ever to oust D&D from top spot. It wasn't our goal, but here we were. And as we started planning for 2011, we knew that if we were going to be the industry leader, we were going to have to step up our game and act like a leader. 2011 would be our first chance to show what we could do with that position....

From Lisa Stevens, Paizo CEO.  

Happened after a year of existence. Pretty impressive! 

It might be impressive if they had designed the game. But they didn't. They took the design, legally (Which is irrelevant here), and sold it. No congratulations from me.

Is this relevant somehow?

I like the "didn't take into account direct sales" line, btw.

Know what they also don't take into account? DDI.

Nov 4, 2012 -- 1:07PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Is this relevant somehow?

To show the immense powah of Paizo!

I like the "didn't take into account direct sales" line, btw.

Wow. Out of context much? They tied or wore on top without direct sells. Add those...

Know what they also don't take into account? DDI.

Which can't be calculated in books sells by definition. But if those were enough for WotC, well 5e wouldn't be in playtest, now would it?

Nov 5, 2012 -- 3:19PM, Hipster_Cat wrote:

Nov 4, 2012 -- 1:07PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Is this relevant somehow?

To show the immense powah of Paizo!

.....in selling a game they didn't create.

You jelly?

Nov 5, 2012 -- 6:31PM, Hipster_Cat wrote:

You jelly?

Nah. I've got orignal ideas.

So do I, but I won't tell you cause you'll steal them. 

Perhaps some think it is irrelevant, but personally, I think that the Pathfinder game did well because there were many people that didn't like 4E (for whatever reasons that I will not discuss here, there are other threads for that). Pathfinder allowed those people to keep playing the game they wanted to play. If WotC had a similar OGL with 4E (which they don't) and a company wanted to continue producing material for it (which there isn't) then there would be many people (myself included) that would continue on that line of games. Not that it would outsell DnDNext or Pathfinder. But it would be there. 

They still produced the game. It's like they aren't responsable for their success.

I think they are definitely responsible for their continued success. I was just pointing out that there was a huge market already existing for the Pathfinder game to lead. They've led it well. I would say that my point is more specifically that Pathfinder didn't build their audience from the ground up.

I'm envious because even though I enjoyed the 3.x system of D&D, I enjoy 4E a whole lot more and it seems unlikely that there will be anyone supporting 4E once WotC stops that line. I have my group and I'll continue to play it at my table for as long as I can. 

The sales stats released in the industry standard trade magazine does not back up her claim. There is no evidence to support what she is saying. It might be true, but she might also be overestimating/overstating the game’s success. People tend to be proud of what they create. So, you will have to color me skeptical. 

Nov 24, 2012 -- 3:16PM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

The sales stats released in the industry standard trade magazine does not back up her claim. There is no evidence to support what she is saying. It might be true, but she might also be overestimating/overstating the game’s success. People tend to be proud of what they create. So, you will have to color me skeptical. 

Of course, but you also think 4e was the best edition of DnD and thus the best seller. Certainly would affect your perception, wouldn't it?

But: 

1) She does say it took a while for a careful magazine industry to say what she (and probably WotC staff) already knew.

2) Paizo didn't make this public until two years after it happened. Shows they are careful and do not want to antagonize fans or try to profit from such info (in a we are better than you are way). Unless you think this statement being loss in a blog is all part of a devious marketing strategy...

3) Icv2 tied DnD and Paizo for first place in the 2nd quarter of 2010 (or was it 3rd quarter?). That is an independant source and happened before PF, according to Lisa, out sold DnD. It's not just her word vs. your disbelief check. Seems the standard mag industry does back her claim.

4) It takes a year (average) to produce a DnD book. This means Essentials were in production in 2009, when Pathfinder only started being released (august 2009). Everyone agrees that Essential was done to recapture people who left DnD because of 4e, so already we see that WotC didn't get all the fans and market shares it wanted from the release of 4e before PF was even released. It's not a stretch to think that PF profited from people who didn't like 4e and that 4e wasn't very popular, making it easier to "outsell". 

Nov 25, 2012 -- 8:49PM, Fascist_Cat wrote:

Of course, but you also think 4e was the best edition of DnD and thus the best seller. Certainly would affect your perception, wouldn't it?

I don't believe he said that 4e was the best selling edition. I feel 4e was the best edition of D&D, but quality and economics are not the same.

I didn't ment best selling edition, just that it outsold PF. The best selling edition was probably 1st when DnD was the most popular or maybe 2e, in terms of volume.