Dave: have you run the numbers with the wizard blasting away with magic missile in every slot. Unless I am reading things wrong it does a ton of damage single target. I think by level 10, 20 rounds of magic missile might out single target damage the fighter.
A wizard's area spells also tend to only be good for the first round of combat until his friends get in the way. Also another issue is going to be with damage being overkill.
Actually you could compare it. First you calculate out what would happen if the Wizard didn't use that spell or tactic, then you calculate out what would happen if they did. Then you take the difference and that's the DPR.
For instance a spell like Hold Person. If a Wizard uses other spells they get the DPR you calculated. Then look at average hp for monsters of a level and then figure out the difference if they use hold person in one of their spell slots. Since it only targets humanoids this time around it should be pretty easy to figure out.
Sorry, what? How do you calculate the DPR for a spell that has a variable overall effect based on the HP of the monster you use it on? And, how do you calculate a spell with a super swingy binary effect, like dominate person, reasonably? If you want to show me an example of what you mean I am all ears. Maybe I am wrong. It happens often enough. But, I don't really understand what you are proposing as written...
For dominate person calculate the average damage of monsters at each level, then remove one of the Wizards daily spells from your other calculation, then calculate the damage that the dominated monster would cause multiply it by the percent that the spell is effective at dominating (I think you estimated 70%?) Then if it allows a save every round you reduce the effect by the chance to save each round. Looking it up the target only gets a save if it does something against its alignment, so evil Kobolds or Goblins dominated should have no saves attacking allies.
Average Damage: 4.77083 Crit Damage: 7.39583 Attack: +1.5 AC: 12.375
Against AC 12.375 attacks that are made at +1.5 have a 45.625% chance to hit. Hit 40.625% * 4.77083 = 1.9381496875; Crit 5% * 7.39583 = 0.3697915; Total Average DPR: 2.3079411875
So a Wizard that takes one Dominate spell lowers their DPR based on the spell they don't have and then increase it by 2.3079411875 which is pretty much horrible for 4-5 rounds or 11.5397059375 for a 5 round combat. At 1st level. Someone with more initiative can run the numbers for other levels.
But then you have to account for the fct that the dominates monster is effectively removed from combat so it is a) auto killed and b) reduces total party damage taken allowing for the party to press on longer and lose less resources overall.
But then you have to account for the fct that the dominates monster is effectively removed from combat so it is a) auto killed and b) reduces total party damage taken allowing for the party to press on longer and lose less resources overall.
That's a function of hit points and survivability which I think we all agree goes to the fighter hands down.
However I did forget to calculate in the the spell save chance. So that 11.5397059375 just went down to 8.07779415625 for 5 rounds. Wow, the Wizard is just about better off taking magic missile at that point. 10 * 5 = 50 for spell slot level 5 magic missile.
Actually you could compare it. First you calculate out what would happen if the Wizard didn't use that spell or tactic, then you calculate out what would happen if they did. Then you take the difference and that's the DPR.
For instance a spell like Hold Person. If a Wizard uses other spells they get the DPR you calculated. Then look at average hp for monsters of a level and then figure out the difference if they use hold person in one of their spell slots. Since it only targets humanoids this time around it should be pretty easy to figure out.
Sorry, what? How do you calculate the DPR for a spell that has a variable overall effect based on the HP of the monster you use it on? And, how do you calculate a spell with a super swingy binary effect, like dominate person, reasonably? If you want to show me an example of what you mean I am all ears. Maybe I am wrong. It happens often enough. But, I don't really understand what you are proposing as written...
For dominate person calculate the average damage of monsters at each level, then remove one of the Wizards daily spells from your other calculation, then calculate the damage that the dominated monster would cause multiply it by the percent that the spell is effective at dominating (I think you estimated 70%?) Then if it allows a save every round you reduce the effect by the chance to save each round. Looking it up the target only gets a save if it does something against its alignment, so evil Kobolds or Goblins dominated should have no saves attacking allies.
Average Damage: 4.77083 Crit Damage: 7.39583 Attack: +1.5 AC: 12.375
Against AC 12.375 attacks that are made at +1.5 have a 45.625% chance to hit. Hit 40.625% * 4.77083 = 1.9381496875; Crit 5% * 7.39583 = 0.3697915; Total Average DPR: 2.3079411875
So a Wizard that takes one Dominate spell lowers their DPR based on the spell they don't have and then increase it by 2.3079411875 which is pretty much horrible for 4-5 rounds or 11.5397059375 for a 5 round combat. At 1st level. Someone with more initiative can run the numbers for other levels.
Dead wizards cast no spells. (at least not at 1st level)
Did you figure that into the calculations?
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells? DM: Awesome. Yes.
Looking it up the target only gets a save if it does something against its alignment, so evil Kobolds or Goblins dominated should have no saves attacking allies.
Hmm... no.
First, all creatures should get saves (although I would expect Goblin and Kobold saves to be relatively low).
But, second? Your rationale is all wrong. Attacking allies is NOT a good/evil axis trait, it is a lawful/chaotic axis trait. And Kobolds, as Lawful creatures, are considerably less likely to attack allies than Orcs who are Chaotic.
Think about it this way-- if a person suddenly perceived their allies as evil?
The Chaotic Good character would turn on the evil allies and take them down for the greater good. This is a fairly regular occurance in comic books which feature vigilantes who flip off the democratically run institutional law enforcement agencies to do their own thing in the name of good. Think about the scene in the Dark Knight where Batman takes down a SWAT squad. He certainly didn't hold back any more than he does with the badguys.
The Lawful Good character would protest their actions, but likely not raise arms save in self defense (and even then try not to harm his evil allies) as attacking them would be breaking his vows. This one is more likely to appear in Wushu or Samurai dramas. The noble knight continues to serve the evil king because as much as individual people may suffer under the king's evil, taking down the king would just cause a power vaccuum where many others begin warring with one another to be the new king and so many more will suffer so much more-- better to serve the evil king and hope his offspring will be more well-adjusted.
Looking it up the target only gets a save if it does something against its alignment, so evil Kobolds or Goblins dominated should have no saves attacking allies.
Hmm... no.
First, all creatures should get saves (although I would expect Goblin and Kobold saves to be relatively low).
But, second? Your rationale is all wrong. Attacking allies is NOT a good/evil axis trait, it is a lawful/chaotic axis trait. And Kobolds, as Lawful creatures, are considerably less likely to attack allies than Orcs who are Chaotic.
Think about it this way-- if a person suddenly perceived their allies as evil?
The Chaotic Good character would turn on the evil allies and take them down for the greater good. This is a fairly regular occurance in comic books which feature vigilantes who flip off the democratically run institutional law enforcement agencies to do their own thing in the name of good. Think about the scene in the Dark Knight where Batman takes down a SWAT squad. He certainly didn't hold back any more than he does with the badguys.
The Lawful Good character would protest their actions, but likely not raise arms save in self defense (and even then try not to harm his evil allies) as attacking them would be breaking his vows. This one is more likely to appear in Wushu or Samurai dramas. The noble knight continues to serve the evil king because as much as individual people may suffer under the king's evil, taking down the king would just cause a power vaccuum where many others begin warring with one another to be the new king and so many more will suffer so much more-- better to serve the evil king and hope his offspring will be more well-adjusted.
Ok. Well they all get the initial save, but the save each round is only for those that go against their alignment. If a monster is evil and they attack their buddies over food or whatever without the dominate on, I don't see how it would matter if they are dominated. What if its lawful to kill your goblin ally if they get in your way? Its all pretty situational.
Generally though I don't think too many monsters are going to get saves based on alignment. There may be some exceptions with neutral and lawful aligned monsters, but in general they aren't going to get a save each round.
Even assuming they get a save it looks like this: Round Chance to have saved by now 1 70% 2 91% 3 97.3%
It gets progressively worse after that. Even then it only lowers the DPR and starts to look ridiculous. Magic Missile is better.
So, I have some major problems with your idea vegetakiller. I don't think it works. I will expail later, when I have some time, but now that I have seen what you mean I stick to my original summation.
Generally though I don't think too many monsters are going to get saves based on alignment. There may be some exceptions with neutral and lawful aligned monsters, but in general they aren't going to get a save each round.
Even assuming they get a save it looks like this: Round Chance to have saved by now 1 70% 2 91% 3 97.3%
It gets progressively worse after that. Even then it only lowers the DPR and starts to look ridiculous. Magic Missile is better.
Hmm.. I would have thought the DC of the Wizard's spell would be higher than that, so even if they got saves every round it would start off at a much lower chance of success of saving and increase from there. And that would only be if you bothered having lawful/neutral creatures kill their own allies. If you told them to just sit in a corner, then they wouldn't need to be doing saves.
But if the DC of Dominate Person is so low that one should expect it to fail 70% of the time, I don't see it ever being a a reasonably better option than direct damage. It does seem like a fun tool to introduce for political intrigue or similar stories though, just not dungeon-crawling.
