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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:10AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Hey everyone. So, for the last playtest I ran the numbers of a 5th level fighter vs. a 5th level wizard. This time I am going to do the same for the 1st level fighter vs. 1st level wizard, 5th level fighter vs. 5th level wizard, and 10th level fighter vs. 10th level wizard. To do this, though, I need some help from the community. First of all, we need to come up with some reasonable estimates for a number of targets per 60 foot cone and per 20 foot raidus. Second of all, we need to come up with a reasonable average saving throw bonus and AC of enemies at 1st, 5th, and 10th level. In the meantime, this is the spell list I will be using at level 10: "Level 10 Fighter vs. Level 10 Wizard (academic tradition), both with 20 in Str/Int Respectivly"
Show
Wizard Spell List:
3 Magic Missile (as a 5th level spell): 10d4+25 (50)
2 Ice Storm: 5d6+5 (22.5) (1/2: 11.25) (20 foot radius)
2 Fireball: 5d6+5 (22.5) (1/2: 11.25) (20 foot radius)
2 Scorching ray: 20 damage
2 Magic Missile: 2d4+5 (10)
At-will; Ray of Frost: 1d6+8 (11.5)
Fighter At-Will Attack (great sword): 2d6+3d10+5 (28.5)
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:19AM
#2
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Problem is direct damage is weak and boring. The real question is how do you compare 2d6+3d10+5 damage vs Dominate Person (take that guy and put him on your team. Who needs more than one spell per fight when that spell gives you something to do for the whole fight?), Cloudkill (take that section of the battlefield, nobody goes there. If they do, take damage and can't see), Polymorph (choose one enemy, turn him into your new pet. Alternatively turn yourself into whatever beast you can dig out of the MM), and so on. Comparing the two classes based on damage done completely misses the basis of most of the complaints about imbalance.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:27AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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There is no wholesome way to analyse that on the basis of raw math. I leave that to playtesting data Seerow. At the moment, both the wizard and the fighter have something that the other does not have. The fighter has survivability, and the ability to protect his team (via hit points, armor, parry, and protect). Via Mighty Exertion and things like grapple, push, trip, or grab he also has very decent single target control. But, how well these things compare against each other, and how good one is vs. the other, is a matter of subjective value response. WotC will have to collect playtesting data, and we will have to speak up about our experiences in game, to evaluate how well the wizard's magic control and the fighter's survivability, protective capabilities, and single target control balance out against each other. In the meantime, this sort of number crunching can still help… P.S. How “weak” damage is depends on what other options are on the table. At the moment, while the wizard has some interesting spells, I have not seen anything that invalidates damage as of yet...
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:37AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Assuming an 80% hit rate and a 30% save rate (I don't know that those numbers are accurate, I am guestimating), and 6 targets hit with a 20' radius AoE spell: "Level 10 Fighter vs. Level 10 Wizard (academic tradition), both with 20 in Str/Int Respectivly"
Show
Wizard Spell List:
3 Magic Missile (as a 5th level spell): 10d4+25 (50)--(50x3=150)
2 Ice Storm: 5d6 5d6—17.5 (1/2—8.75): (20 foot radius)--(14.875x2x6=178.5)
2 Fireball: 5d6 5d6—17.5 (1/2—8.75): (20 foot radius)--(14.875x2x6=178.5)
2 Scorching ray: 20 damage (20)--(20x2=40)
2 Magic Missile: 2d4+5 (10)--(10x2=20)
At-will; Ray of Frost: 1d6+8 (11.5) : Critical Hit 14+6d6--10.375
At-will; Burning Hands: 1d6+5 (8.5) (1/2: 4.25)--(7.225x3=21.675)
Fighter At-Will Attack (great sword): 2d6+5 (12): Critical Hit (38)--(10.9x2=21.8)
Damage Add from Deadly Strike per Round: 3d10 (16.5) :Critical Hit (30) -- (18.39375)
Average Damage Per Round: 40.19375 Total Daily Damage AoE in 11 Rounds: 567 Wizard AoE Damage in 16 Rounds (5 rounds of burning hands): 675.375 Wizard AoE Damage in 20 Rounds (9 rounds of burning hands): 762.075 Total Daily Single Target damage in 11 rounds: 239.75 Wizard Single Target Damage in 16 rounds (5 rounds of Ray of Frost): 291.625 Wizard Single Target Damage in 20 rounds (9 rounds of Ray of Frost): 333.125 Fighter Damage in 11 rounds: 442.13125 Fighter Damage in 16 Rounds: 643.1 Fighter Damage in 20 Rounds: 803.875 This looks quite fair to me! Hell, the fighter might be doing a little too much. Then again, a wizard gets some very powerful control spells that might balance that out.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 6:21PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2012
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Hey everyone. So, for the last playtest I ran the numbers of a 5th level fighter vs. a 5th level wizard. This time I am going to do the same for the 1st level fighter vs. 1st level wizard, 5th level fighter vs. 5th level wizard, and 10th level fighter vs. 10th level wizard. To do this, though, I need some help from the community. First of all, we need to come up with some reasonable estimates for a number of targets per 60 foot cone and per 20 foot raidus. Second of all, we need to come up with a reasonable average saving throw bonus and AC of enemies at 1st, 5th, and 10th level. In the meantime, this is the spell list I will be using at level 10:
"Level 10 Fighter vs. Level 10 Wizard (academic tradition), both with 20 in Str/Int Respectivly"
Show
Wizard Spell List:
3 Magic Missile (as a 5th level spell): 10d4+25 (50)
2 Ice Storm: 5d6+5 (22.5) (1/2: 11.25) (20 foot radius)
2 Fireball: 5d6+5 (22.5) (1/2: 11.25) (20 foot radius)
2 Scorching ray: 20 damage
2 Magic Missile: 2d4+5 (10)
At-will; Ray of Frost: 1d6+8 (11.5)
Fighter At-Will Attack (great sword): 2d6+3d10+5 (28.5)
Well the Wizard isn't going to use an area spell on less than 2 targets and probably not on less than 3. If at all possible they would likely aim for 4 or 5. So I'd say around 3 for smaller area spells like burning hands and probably 5 for larger ones.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 6:26PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2012
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There is no wholesome way to analyse that on the basis of raw math. I leave that to playtesting data Seerow. At the moment, both the wizard and the fighter have something that the other does not have. The fighter has survivability, and the ability to protect his team (via hit points, armor, parry, and protect). Via Mighty Exertion and things like grapple, push, trip, or grab he also has very decent single target control. But, how well these things compare against each other, and how good one is vs. the other, is a matter of subjective value response. WotC will have to collect playtesting data, and we will have to speak up about our experiences in game, to evaluate how well the wizard's magic control and the fighter's survivability, protective capabilities, and single target control balance out against each other. In the meantime, this sort of number crunching can still help…
P.S. How “weak” damage is depends on what other options are on the table. At the moment, while the wizard has some interesting spells, I have not seen anything that invalidates damage as of yet...
Actually you could compare it. First you calculate out what would happen if the Wizard didn't use that spell or tactic, then you calculate out what would happen if they did. Then you take the difference and that's the DPR.
For instance a spell like Hold Person. If a Wizard uses other spells they get the DPR you calculated. Then look at average hp for monsters of a level and then figure out the difference if they use hold person in one of their spell slots. Since it only targets humanoids this time around it should be pretty easy to figure out.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 6:29PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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What measurement do you use to calculate the side effects of Fireball and Ice Storm? Or are you looking strictly at damage per round?
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 6:40PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2012
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What measurement do you use to calculate the side effects of Fireball and Ice Storm? Or are you looking strictly at damage per round?
Side effects? Are you talking about setting unattended flammable objects on fire and difficult terrain? Difficult terrain has little or no effect except to reduce the damage the party takes if it is used to slow creatures down. In itself it doesn't end fights quicker. Burning objects really only affect the story. Maybe they create difficult terrain, maybe not. This is a DM fiat issue.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 7:18PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Actually you could compare it. First you calculate out what would happen if the Wizard didn't use that spell or tactic, then you calculate out what would happen if they did. Then you take the difference and that's the DPR.
For instance a spell like Hold Person. If a Wizard uses other spells they get the DPR you calculated. Then look at average hp for monsters of a level and then figure out the difference if they use hold person in one of their spell slots. Since it only targets humanoids this time around it should be pretty easy to figure out.
Sorry, what? How do you calculate the DPR for a spell that has a variable overall effect based on the HP of the monster you use it on? And, how do you calculate a spell with a super swingy binary effect, like dominate person, reasonably? If you want to show me an example of what you mean I am all ears. Maybe I am wrong. It happens often enough. But, I don't really understand what you are proposing as written...
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7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:31PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Heh. I just thought I would put the rogue up so people could see just how bad it really is. Rogue, using a 1d8 finesse weapon or ranged weapon, with a 20 in Dex, at level 10:
Rogue At-Will Attack: 1d8+3d10+5 (26) : critical hit (64)
Average Damage Per Round: 21.4.
So, the rogue does 53% of the fighters damage per round. Here are the fighter numbers for comparison in a single post:
Fighter At-Will Attack (great sword): 2d6+5 (12): Critical Hit (38)--(10.9x2=21.8)
Damage Add from Deadly Strike per Round: 3d10 (16.5) :Critical Hit (30) -- (18.39375)
Average Damage Per Round: 40.19375
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