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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 9:34AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2008
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To all the people who like the concept of a pacifist cleric, I think you're missing something. You're not required to use the extra action from words of power to attack, you can use it to do ANY kind of action, except casting. You can Dodge, Disengage, Disarm, Grab, Help, Hide, Hustle, Knock Down, Push...or just improvise! Plenty of stuff to do!
That's not the point we're talking about. Or not the point I'm talking about, at least.
There's plenty of stuff to be done with that action, surely. In fact, there's almost exactly as much to be done with it as with any regular action. (barring the strange disconnect where you suddenly can't speak in a round where you cast a spell with just a verbal component, while speaking after any other spell is fine)
But that's just the point. A mechanic such as this, in my eyes, devalues the percieved value of healing. Both in the eyes of the player, and for the perspective of the character's involved. It's both relegating the entire act of healing to a thing of secondary importance - as the action is more of a second thought, on top of a main action in a round - and negating the intimacy evoked in thought and deed. - as it's now a cleric saying a few words from 50 feet away, while engaged in some other, evidently more important activity, instead of the cleric standing next to his wounded comrade, laying his hands on his injured frame and having the wounds close under them -
Also, all issues of feeling and roleplay aside, there is also the tactical aspect Ogrenomnom mentioned: healing taking no time or effort removes a very important tactical decision from the game. Do you take a round or two to heal your injured partymembers before you start running from the mob you know is coming, or do you take the head start, knowing you'll be hurting a lot if they catch up to you? Do you take another whack at the troll in hopes of bringing him down before he gets the chance to club your party's wizard again, who is standing before him looks quite staggered, as the last blow left him at 5 hp?
There is no question. You do both. You charge ahead, replacing your battlecry with a word or two in prayer so people around you magically start being revitalised while you run for your life, charge at the troll, or play a game of chess with the wizard's familiar.
What you do with the actual action is of no concern whatsoever to me. It's just the implications of having it, and of how it is achieved that irk me to no end.
Oh, and by RAW, you can drink that potion just fine. RAI, I see the spirit of your ruling, but given the disconnect I mentioned at the start, I wouldn't have an issue with someone downing a shot after casting.
I see where you are coming from, and I can appreciate your logic.
However, in earlier editions many clerics felt that having to choose between healing or attacking or ect. put them in a confrontation with their allies. That's why there are blog posts in the vein of "I'm the cleric not your #$%!#" Other players demanded healing and the cleric ended up spending most of the exciting encounter "watching the green bars" to use another phrase I've heard tossed around. I'm more than willing to have healing feel like less of an issue if that means it is less divisive between players.
If we could find a way to allow the cleric the decision making you want, without opening the door to players putting pressure on them to only heal, then I'm all for it. But I doubt it is possible to do this and I'd prefer to err on this side than back to the other.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 9:45AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2010
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To all the people who like the concept of a pacifist cleric, I think you're missing something. You're not required to use the extra action from words of power to attack, you can use it to do ANY kind of action, except casting. You can Dodge, Disengage, Disarm, Grab, Help, Hide, Hustle, Knock Down, Push...or just improvise! Plenty of stuff to do!
That's not the point we're talking about. Or not the point I'm talking about, at least.
There's plenty of stuff to be done with that action, surely. In fact, there's almost exactly as much to be done with it as with any regular action. (barring the strange disconnect where you suddenly can't speak in a round where you cast a spell with just a verbal component, while speaking after any other spell is fine)
But that's just the point. A mechanic such as this, in my eyes, devalues the percieved value of healing. Both in the eyes of the player, and for the perspective of the character's involved. It's both relegating the entire act of healing to a thing of secondary importance - as the action is more of a second thought, on top of a main action in a round - and negating the intimacy evoked in thought and deed. - as it's now a cleric saying a few words from 50 feet away, while engaged in some other, evidently more important activity, instead of the cleric standing next to his wounded comrade, laying his hands on his injured frame and having the wounds close under them -
Also, all issues of feeling and roleplay aside, there is also the tactical aspect Ogrenomnom mentioned: healing taking no time or effort removes a very important tactical decision from the game. Do you take a round or two to heal your injured partymembers before you start running from the mob you know is coming, or do you take the head start, knowing you'll be hurting a lot if they catch up to you? Do you take another whack at the troll in hopes of bringing him down before he gets the chance to club your party's wizard again, who is standing before him looks quite staggered, as the last blow left him at 5 hp?
There is no question. You do both. You charge ahead, replacing your battlecry with a word or two in prayer so people around you magically start being revitalised while you run for your life, charge at the troll, or play a game of chess with the wizard's familiar.
What you do with the actual action is of no concern whatsoever to me. It's just the implications of having it, and of how it is achieved that irk me to no end.
Oh, and by RAW, you can drink that potion just fine. RAI, I see the spirit of your ruling, but given the disconnect I mentioned at the start, I wouldn't have an issue with someone downing a shot after casting.
Eh, I understand your point of view. I guess it's just a matter of taste and preference  . I played a 3rd edition cleric, and it bored me to tears, having to give up my entire turn running from one ally to the next just healing them. I much preferred 4e clerics, who could heal a lot and do other stuff at the same time.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 11:16AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Sep 22, 2012
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Absolutely love the mechanic, and it's one of the hold over design ideas from 4th edition that I absolutely adore.
I think that the cleric of previsioly package is more interesting than it is now. I'd like to see more domains distinctions than simple prepared spell lists.
Turn undead as habilit is nice, but the current version is too complicated and weak.
Words of power is another nice mechanic if you add it to right spells.
I like if heal spells has 2 types: one touch spell that heal much hp and another word of power that heal few hp, because this promote tactical and roleplay.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2012 - 5:44PM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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If we could find a way to allow the cleric the decision making you want, without opening the door to players putting pressure on them to only heal, then I'm all for it. But I doubt it is possible to do this and I'd prefer to err on this side than back to the other.
And that is exactly why I said in my initial post how I loved how this was worked out in the first public playtest iteration. It's not that I mind the concept existing for players who want it, because I do see the call for it. And have seen a few people utter that call for decades. I just think it should be a special feature, for clerics worshipping the gods that thematically fit the picture. That's why I liked the War Domain cleric having the option to heal while fighting, while the Sun domain one had to use his entire turn, but got a whole lot more healing done.
We actually had both of them active in the same party, and neither felt any more or less useful than the other, nor did they have less fun doing what they chose to do. In fact, it made it all the more enjoyable, because the difference in mechanics underlined the very different themes both had.
It could even just be as simple as different lines of spells for the two options. Say Minor Word of Healing, and Cure Minor Wounds, etc. I would vastly prefer the difference being inherent in the choice of deity/domain though.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 04, 2012 - 7:36PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2012
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If we could find a way to allow the cleric the decision making you want, without opening the door to players putting pressure on them to only heal, then I'm all for it. But I doubt it is possible to do this and I'd prefer to err on this side than back to the other.
And that is exactly why I said in my initial post how I loved how this was worked out in the first public playtest iteration. It's not that I mind the concept existing for players who want it, because I do see the call for it. And have seen a few people utter that call for decades. I just think it should be a special feature, for clerics worshipping the gods that thematically fit the picture. That's why I liked the War Domain cleric having the option to heal while fighting, while the Sun domain one had to use his entire turn, but got a whole lot more healing done.
We actually had both of them active in the same party, and neither felt any more or less useful than the other, nor did they have less fun doing what they chose to do. In fact, it made it all the more enjoyable, because the difference in mechanics underlined the very different themes both had.
It could even just be as simple as different lines of spells for the two options. Say Minor Word of Healing, and Cure Minor Wounds, etc. I would vastly prefer the difference being inherent in the choice of deity/domain though.
This is also what I did to my current group. We have a total of 6 players, 2 fighters, 2 clerics, 1 rogue and 1 wizard. Overall, its a good sampling for the playtest in diversity. For the clerics, one is the Lifegiver cleric, the other is warbringer. I had to make some changes, because I wanted their decisions for their deity to matter. I would also like to point out, that up until this point, I had not recieved a complaint on having to touch to heal. Granted, I do think there should be more options, but I don't think the word of power route was the best.
I handled it quite simply:
Spoiler:
Show
Cure Wounds Effect: Choose to heal an ally up to 50 feet away, or an adjacent one. The target is healed for 1d8+4. Adjacent targets heal for an additional 2d8. Special: Can be prepared in a higher level spell slot to gain the following benefits. +1d8/+2d8 +4 per level raised. Then I changed the benefit of the warbringer, since I think the martial weapon option is just lazy. Disciple of the Warbringer You can cast Cure Wounds as a word of power, but in doing so, do not gain the adjacent bonus.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 5:35AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2008
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I'm with Mardrax on this one. The distance spell healing less than than the touch version was very nice and meaty. Good tactical options. However, I also like like the idea of weaker buffs, like Bless, being a Power Word followed by a charge into combat.
and the current Turning is junk. Who came up with all these spells and effects based on Hit Points? So my wizard based (and therefore lower HP) Lich is now easier to turn the the melee based Wight? Ridiculous. All spells should be hit dice based AND that includes Healing.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 5:46AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2010
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While I like the intent behind of having different style of healing spells, I usually find out that it's very difficult to balance to two approaches with each other.
For instance, in the first packet, we had healing word (ranged, "words of power style" heal, that only cured 1d6) vs CLW (melee, action consuming heal, cured 1d8 +4). CLW was clearly the superior choice, and no savvy cleric would really waste a slot on healing word (1-6 hp regained vs 5-12 is WAY too much of a difference).
On the other hand, having a level 1 words of power heal cure only a little less than CLW would make CLW a trap choice. It's tricky. I honestly prefer the current, more streamlined, approach.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 6:18AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 12, 2006
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I have seen some arguments about the thematics of this mechanic and I think that there has been something very important overlooked in that area. I believe that the Word of Power mechanic is meant to be a word in Supernal, the language of creation. These words supposedly are capable of making changes in reality when spoken. So the idea that you can't thematically speak a word and heal someone at 50' is a false assumption I believe. This mechanic works very well with the thematic idea behind the supernal language. Perhaps when you prepare these spells your god whispers the words into your mind and when you shout them on the field you can feel the hand of god shaping reality to your will. Feels pretty thematic to me  My 2 copper pieces.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 6:20AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2010
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I have seen some arguments about the thematics of this mechanic and I think that there has been something very important overlooked in that area. I believe that the Word of Power mechanic is meant to be a word in Supernal, the language of creation. These words supposedly are capable of making changes in reality when spoken. So the idea that you can't thematically speak a word and heal someone at 50' is a false assumption I believe. This mechanic works very well with the thematic idea behind the supernal language. Perhaps when you prepare these spells your god whispers the words into your mind and when you shout them on the field you can feel the hand of god shaping reality to your will. Feels pretty thematic to me
My 2 copper pieces.
That's a pretty cool and flavorful intepretation of the mechanic! I like it. Kinda reminds me of the Silmarillion.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 05, 2012 - 10:13AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Aug 12, 2006
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It also explains why you can't speak for a couple of seconds, these words were never meant for mortals and so after speaking them it takes a second for your voice to return (I keep seeing it like the Skyrim shouts in my head).
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