This thread is to compile a list of suggestions that would fix the rogue for those of us who are not currently happy with it:
1) Sneak Attack is too weak; it is just a worse version of Deadly Strike right now. When a rogue has advantage, sneak attack damage dice should be maximized; when a rogue scores a critical hit that damage should be doubled. Otherwise it can be left as is. By this means a fighter's DPR would still be superior, but once in a while a rogue could feel like there is something special about his sneak attack ability, especially when he gets the pounce on someone.
2) The rogue needs more rogue specific manoeuvres, some of which (preferably) don't amount to the rogue dealing direct damage. For example, I would like to see a power which allows a rogue to spend sneak attack damage dice to debuff foes in some shape or form; that debuff should be more powerful if it is used against an enemy who the rogue has advantage against.
3) If the rogue is going to gain fewer manoeuvres as he levels, the rogue needs to gain more of something else. Maybe more bonuses to skills? Perhaps the rogue, at level 5, could gain training in one new skill? Otherwise, he should gain new manoeuvres at the same rate as the fighter. I would prefer it if the rogue gains manoeuvres more slowly (ending up with 2 less manoeuvres by level 20, and one less maneuver by level 10, based on current progression), but the rogue gained training in new skills (2 by level 20, and 1 by level 10).
4) The rogue needs to gain something to balance out against the fighter's bonus attack. If the rogue gains manoeuvres at the same rate as the fighter, maybe a new skill would work. If new skills are used to balance out the rogue's slower progression in terms of manoeuvres then a new skill would be overkill. Something else would be required. Someone suggested dual wielding bonuses when two finesse weapons are used. I like that idea, though maybe those sorts of bonuses should be kept to feats. Perhaps at 5th level a rogue could get the ability to make a free skill check any time it makes an attack? That would be neat and fun! Otherwise, perhaps at 5th level the rogue could gain the ability to gain advantage twice per encounter (regained with a short rest)? Hell, perhaps at 5th level a rogue gains the ability to never “roll” less than a 5 on a skill check (if you roll 1-4 it counts as a 5). Whatever. Give us something of similar value, if not necessarily for the purposes of combat!
A combination of all of these four things would make the rogue attractive, to me, again.
Meanwhile, what I think is fine as is: I think it is fine that the rogue has 1 less bonus to hit, weaker weapon proficiencies, weaker armor proficiencies, and less hit points. I think that his 4 extra skills and thieves’ tools proficiency balance out against those weaknesses.
The manoeuvres will grow with time, this is just a small sample for playtesting I bet.
I think rogues should just have 1 extra expertise die at level 1, and they should start with sneak attack as a free manoeuvre. 4d10 at level 10 is a bit high though... so maybe the progression table needs to change a little bit for rogues.
Rogues should be built around being a collosal ass in some fashion. So here are my ideas:
1) Tie Sneak Attack to Visibility, make then perform a sneak roll first, and then boost the damage way up. This rewards cloak-and-dagger work and gives a real sense of accomplishment to pulling SA off.
2) Let the rogue set traps. Come on you KNOW that would be awesome.
3) Give the rogue some Avenger abilities to push monsters into said traps. Alternately, bring back avengers as these two classes would work together REALLY well in this situation.
4) Give the rogue more maneuverability. Let them run around the battlefield and get where they need to be with little or no risk or getting swiped at.
5) Give the rogue what I call "**** gear". Gear you'd only use if you were a complete dick (which I totally am when I play rogues). Things like poison daggers, smoke bombs, blow darts that carry odd diseases, and those things Batman uses to tie up people's feet would be a nice start.
Really, the amount of SA damage isn't a problem--given the reduction on the Fighter's Deadly Strike and the fact that SA is somuch easier to set-up, the reduction of SA's damage only makes sense.
No, what rogues need are some unique maneuvers that allow them to to inflict and effect status/condition that's in addition to their basic weapon damage (or SA, if the have multiple dice to split between maneuvers). Something like granting advantage to friendies against the opponent struck, giving the opponent disadvantage on attacks, or causing a status/condition on the opponent, etc.
Leave straight-up damage output to the fighter, let the rogue have interesting effects that speak more to the ideas of "roguishness" and "dirty fighting", like "blinding strike", "hamstring", "crippling blow", or whatever.
Playtest or get off the playtest boards.
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I want justice for the voice that can't be heard Vindication for every suffering and hurt Let retribution hold dominion over earth --Nemesis, VNV Nation
Really, the amount of SA damage isn't a problem--given the reduction on the Fighter's Deadly Strike and the fact that SA is somuch easier to set-up, the reduction of SA's damage only makes sense.
Sorry, but it does not make sense that a rogue's Sneak Attack, which requires either advantage or that an ally be adjacent to your target, deal the exact same damage as a fighter's Deadly Strike, which requires nothing. Add to that the fact that the fighter uses stronger weapons, has an extra +1 to hit, and gets a second attack at 5th level, and the damage discrepancy is just silly. Rogues are not even in the same ballpark! So yes, rogues need more Sneak Attack damage. Maximized Expertise Dice (you don't roll, you just deal the dice's maximum damage value) when you have advantage, and double that damage when you score a critical hit (while you also have advantage) would be enough of a boost to not overshadow the fighter but still make the rogue feel special/playable.
No, what rogues need are some unique maneuvers that allow them to to inflict and effect status/condition that's in addition to their basic weapon damage (or SA, if the have multiple dice to split between maneuvers). Something like granting advantage to friendies against the opponent struck, giving the opponent disadvantage on attacks, or causing a status/condition on the opponent, etc.
They need that too. As it is, the rogue does not have nearly enough unique maneuvers to feel very different from the fighter.
Leave straight-up damage output to the fighter, let the rogue have interesting effects that speak more to the ideas of "roguishness" and "dirty fighting", like "blinding strike", "hamstring", "crippling blow", or whatever.
In terms of average damage per round, I am fine if the fighter has a better straight up damage value. It has, however, been traditional for the rogue to deal more damage than the fighter with single sporadic attacks. This has been the case since at least 2e. Remove the option for the rogue to do that, as they have with this playtest, and a lot of players will be upset (which is what we have seen). Ignoring that, and not giving rogues that option, is likely to drive players away from this game in droves. I know I will not purchase this game if the rogue end up being released looking the way it does now!
Really, the amount of SA damage isn't a problem--given the reduction on the Fighter's Deadly Strike and the fact that SA is somuch easier to set-up, the reduction of SA's damage only makes sense.
Sorry, but it does not make sense that a rogue's Sneak Attack, which requires either advantage or that an ally be adjacent to your target, deal the exact same damage as a fighter's Deadly Strike, which requires nothing. Add to that the fact that the fighter uses stronger weapons, has an extra +1 to hit, and gets a second attack at 5th level, and the damage discrepancy is just silly. Rogues are not even in the same ballpark! So yes, rogues need more Sneak Attack damage. Maximized Expertise Dice (you don't roll, you just deal the dice's maximum damage value) when you have advantage, and double that damage when you score a critical hit (while you also have advantage) would be enough of a boost to not overshadow the fighter but still make the rogue feel special/playable.
At the point that it only requires a friendly to be standing within reach of the enemy, it's not really a special circumstance that the rogue has to maneuver into or manipulate. Giving them more damage with the current SA requiments (of what little there is) is pretty much giving rogues more damage than the fighter in most attacks in many combats and allowing him to make the fighter's attacks largely superfluous. Tighter-up the SA requirements back a bit, and, sure, bigger damage would be acceptable. But with the loose reqs, it's stepping on the fighter's toes too much.
Leave straight-up damage output to the fighter, let the rogue have interesting effects that speak more to the ideas of "roguishness" and "dirty fighting", like "blinding strike", "hamstring", "crippling blow", or whatever.
In terms of average damage per round, I am fine if the fighter has a better straight up damage value. It has, however, been traditional for the rogue to deal more damage than the fighter with single sporadic attacks. This has been the case since at least 2e. Remove the option for the rogue to do that, as they have with this playtest, and a lot of players will be upset (which is what we have seen). Ignoring that, and not giving rogues that option, is likely to drive players away from this game in droves. I know I will not purchase this game if the rogue end up being released looking the way it does now!
Not entirely with 1e/2e... Remember that fighters got multiple attacks as the increased in level, had access to more damaging weapons and typically had highter STR modifiers, and specialization. The Thief had lower damage weapons, the backstab multiplier maxed at ×5 the thief's weapon damage and it was more limited when it applied. I'll give you 3e (mainly because I don't want to do the math to include iterative attacks and expected magic item allotment). And I can't speak for 4e. So, traditional to out-damage the fighter in sporadic bursts is iffy IMO. You could probably do in in 3e & 4e, but it's unlikely in 1e/2e & probably BXCMI (didn't feel like checking).
However, if the restrictions on SA were tightent up, I would agree with more damage on SA. However, with its current (very) loose restrictions, I'm inclined to say it'd be too much to increase the damage.
Playtest or get off the playtest boards.
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I want justice for the voice that can't be heard Vindication for every suffering and hurt Let retribution hold dominion over earth --Nemesis, VNV Nation
In its current state it is still just a weaker Deadly Strike. There is no way people are going to approve of that. And notice, I said maximized dice only when you have advantage, not when an ally is just standing next to your target. So, an ally is standing next to your target? You can deal your expertise dice as bonus damage. You have advantage? Those dice get maximized. So long as getting advantage doesn't become silly easy ala the last packet's thug things will balance out. On most attacks the fighter will deal a little more damage (due to a better weapon). Once in a while the rogue will deal more damage. By 5th level the fighter will get an extra attack and will jump even farther ahead of the damage curve.
But, honestly, I am also ok with just tightening up the requirement to only happen with advantage period, and for the dice to always be maximize… at least, if as of 5th level the rogue gets something that keeps him competitive with the fighter. It is possible that otherwise the rogue will feel a little overpowered overall, at least until level 5 (when the fighter’s damage gets a boost).
Really, the amount of SA damage isn't a problem--given the reduction on the Fighter's Deadly Strike and the fact that SA is somuch easier to set-up, the reduction of SA's damage only makes sense.
No, what rogues need are some unique maneuvers that allow them to to inflict and effect status/condition that's in addition to their basic weapon damage (or SA, if the have multiple dice to split between maneuvers). Something like granting advantage to friendies against the opponent struck, giving the opponent disadvantage on attacks, or causing a status/condition on the opponent, etc.
Leave straight-up damage output to the fighter, let the rogue have interesting effects that speak more to the ideas of "roguishness" and "dirty fighting", like "blinding strike", "hamstring", "crippling blow", or whatever.
What ou say makes sense and I like your suggestions about status effects. Fighters get big bonus to hit and damage, and ability to make multiple attacks in various ways, and get around the battlefield, and protect others. They get best ac and HPs to boot. The rogue is not the blunt instrument that the fighter is, and instead uses hit and run tactics, back stabs, and fouls up the enemies by hamstringing them, disarming them, distracting them, what ever. This would be more rogueish than just getting more damage dice.
How about this, let's say the rogue gets the same number of specialty dice as the fighter but can only get advantage against an oppenet with an ally near by if they spend an expertise die. So, its sneak attack only when have advantage, or spend a die and get a advantage if an ally is adjacent to the enemy, allowing for a sneak attack if you have the extra die to spend. This way, if you sneak attack under tighter restrictions, you have more dice yo can spend on damage. If you attack under less optimal conditions, you have to split your dice, one going towards granting advantage, the othe towards bonus damage?
