|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 3:13PM
#51
|
Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2012
|
Since this problem mostly applies to the Illusionist (Battle Mage can get by with shocking grasp), my question for common Illusionist players is this.
How do you use your at-wills effectively in combat?
There are clearly a multitude of things that can be done with minor illusion, but there are no codified rules for using it as a combat spell. Sure you can make a big scary looking dude to scare off the kobolds, but what rules do you use? What happens to the enemies (flee, cower, surrender, fight harder... how do you pick)? Does it apply conditions? Is there a save? If so what DC do you use (at-will that applies conditions and has a scaling DC is very powerful)?
I would love to make an Illusionist who never makes a damage roll but is still contributing his fair share to a fight (although players splitting efforts between win by doing damage and win by not doing damage could cause problems, but that is another issue), but there need to be codified rules for using such powers in combat. At the very least there should be some examples of how to use Minor Illusion in combat so that we have a baseline for the power level and can modify it from there.
I guess the response I am looking for is how have people done this in the past (examples) and how do they think it should be done in the future.
It helps if you read the packet. All illusion spells now have a DC 15 save associated with them.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 3:22PM
#52
|
Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
|
Pathfinder has o levels spells as cantrips. D&D next 0 level spells are a bit more powerful but having 2 3 at wills or so isn't going to break the class. Maybe make the wizard prepare them and you are good to go.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 3:36PM
#53
|
|
|
D and D dagger; d4 damage to a man sized creature...
It is core to the game for me that wizards should scrape by for the first few levels protected by the party until they come into their own. Wizards using weapons durring those levels is desirable.
That might work for you, but not everyone wants to play a wizard who is playing a pathetic fighter 90% of the time. My vote would be to return zero spells to at-wills and call it a day. If there is a significant crowd that disagrees, then maybe that could be support in a rules module for low magic campaigns.
I think the important distinction here is that this is only the case for the first 2-4 levels depending on if the wizard comes into his own at 3rd or 5th level. At higher levels the wizard will almost always have a spell or other action he can take.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 3:55PM
#54
|
|
|
D and D dagger; d4 damage to a man sized creature...
It is core to the game for me that wizards should scrape by for the first few levels protected by the party until they come into their own. Wizards using weapons durring those levels is desirable.
That might work for you, but not everyone wants to play a wizard who is playing a pathetic fighter 90% of the time. My vote would be to return zero spells to at-wills and call it a day. If there is a significant crowd that disagrees, then maybe that could be support in a rules module for low magic campaigns.
I think the important distinction here is that this is only the case for the first 2-4 levels depending on if the wizard comes into his own at 3rd or 5th level. At higher levels the wizard will almost always have a spell or other action he can take.
That is what I am questioning. If a third level wizard has 3 spells per day, how will he or she always have a spell they can cast. You're talking about 3 actions in 20 rounds (assuming 4-5 encounters per day, totaling 20 rounds). Thats 15% Wizard / 85% Commoner. If we go with 5th level, the its 25% Wizard / 75% Commoner.
Now take those limited number of spells and replace a few with defensive spells to stay alive, or utility or buff spells to help the party, and you spend even more time being a commoner militia.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 4:07PM
#55
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
Unless you're playing your illusionist as an illusionist. In which case "utility spell" means creative use of your (mostly at-will) illusions.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 4:20PM
#56
|
Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2012
|
D and D dagger; d4 damage to a man sized creature...
It is core to the game for me that wizards should scrape by for the first few levels protected by the party until they come into their own. Wizards using weapons durring those levels is desirable.
That might work for you, but not everyone wants to play a wizard who is playing a pathetic fighter 90% of the time. My vote would be to return zero spells to at-wills and call it a day. If there is a significant crowd that disagrees, then maybe that could be support in a rules module for low magic campaigns.
I think the important distinction here is that this is only the case for the first 2-4 levels depending on if the wizard comes into his own at 3rd or 5th level. At higher levels the wizard will almost always have a spell or other action he can take.
That is what I am questioning. If a third level wizard has 3 spells per day, how will he or she always have a spell they can cast. You're talking about 3 actions in 20 rounds (assuming 4-5 encounters per day, totaling 20 rounds). Thats 15% Wizard / 85% Commoner. If we go with 5th level, the its 25% Wizard / 75% Commoner.
Now take those limited number of spells and replace a few with defensive spells to stay alive, or utility or buff spells to help the party, and you spend even more time being a commoner militia.
With all the bonus spells added it was suggested that a level 10 wizard or cleric would have about 14 spells a day. Thats including 4ish level 0 if you want to count them.
I think this is too little but thats only imho.
i do think that the wizard should have optional builds, battle mage, mage, summoner etc that give them more or less access to martial/combat/pets/more spells.
I have no problem with a wizard using a simple, martial or exotic weapon in combat if its something the player WANTS and there is a balance that can be reached with optional choices like those above.
What i dont like to see is limitations just for limitations sake
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 4:23PM
#57
|
|
|
Unless you're playing your illusionist as an illusionist. In which case "utility spell" means creative use of your (mostly at-will) illusions.
True, but not all casters have the same flexible with their at-will spells. I love illusions for that reason, however their usefulness is often highly reliant on DM interpretation. With an easy going DM they might be trump, but with a stingy DM they might be all but useless. I've played in games that have gone to both extremes, and you don't always know in advance which way the pendulum might swing.
Now unfortunately if that same Illusionist ends up in a game with a stingy DM, or adventure full of mindless undead (assuming they are unaffected), your left with a couple of mage armors at most, and your trusty crossbow.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 4:47PM
#58
|
Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2012
|
Unless you're playing your illusionist as an illusionist. In which case "utility spell" means creative use of your (mostly at-will) illusions.
True, but not all casters have the same flexible with their at-will spells. I love illusions for that reason, however their usefulness is often highly reliant on DM interpretation. With an easy going DM they might be trump, but with a stingy DM they might be all but useless. I've played in games that have gone to both extremes, and you don't always know in advance which way the pendulum might swing.
Now unfortunately if that same Illusionist ends up in a game with a stingy DM, or adventure full of mindless undead (assuming they are unaffected), your left with a couple of mage armors at most, and your trusty crossbow.
All illusion spells have a save DC now. Go read them.
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 6:23PM
#59
|
Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2005
|
D and D dagger; d4 damage to a man sized creature...
It is core to the game for me that wizards should scrape by for the first few levels protected by the party until they come into their own. Wizards using weapons durring those levels is desirable.
That might work for you, but not everyone wants to play a wizard who is playing a pathetic fighter 90% of the time. My vote would be to return zero spells to at-wills and call it a day. If there is a significant crowd that disagrees, then maybe that could be support in a rules module for low magic campaigns.
I think the important distinction here is that this is only the case for the first 2-4 levels depending on if the wizard comes into his own at 3rd or 5th level. At higher levels the wizard will almost always have a spell or other action he can take.
Its a lot easier to stomach pew pewing outside of the low levels. I'm for a 100% atwill class and a 0%. I brought up the 100% atwill class here.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
|
|
|
|
7 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 6:43PM
#60
|
Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2005
|
That is what I am questioning. If a third level wizard has 3 spells per day, how will he or she always have a spell they can cast.
Its seven spells per day and they wont. That is the point.
You're talking about 3 actions in 20 rounds (assuming 4-5 encounters per day, totaling 20 rounds). Thats 15% Wizard / 85% Commoner. If we go with 5th level, the its 25% Wizard / 75% Commoner.
By that logic Conan the Barbarian is 100% commoner whenever he walks, sleeps, or uses the bathroom.
Now take those limited number of spells and replace a few with defensive spells to stay alive, or utility or buff spells to help the party, and you spend even more time being a commoner militia.
Even by that logic its false sense defensive spells linger longer than hand missles, and shocking grasps..
|
|
|
