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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:37AM
#51
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As a note: if the fighter is in melee with the enemy both the fighter and rogue deal the same amount of damage. sneak attack works if you have an ally in melee with the enemy.
(Note: even if you are using a ranged attack)
Yes this... POKE poke people....
(its easier than flanking for pox sake).
So its easier than flanking to almost do as much damage as the Fighter some of the time, but worse than any other class?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:38AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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PSA: The Rogue No Longer Supports Your Play-Style (But That's Okay Because I Like It, and if You Disagree Then You Only Care About Combat)
This. Please try to think beyond what you want, and to what other people want as well.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:41AM
#53
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Well, Rogue's pick one power they use in combat (maybe) and one power they get that they just use to add dice to skill checks. Fighter's at least can start with two powers for in combat, Deadly Strike base and something else to choose.
Skill Mastery as a maneuever is clunky, silly, and boring. ED should be for combat, and not out of combat....thus the rogue class needs actual features instead of being shoehorned into the maneuver system and getting bandaided with clunky mechanics.
I suppose if you really liked old-school rogue's the current one is nice...but as I didn't like old-school rogues I do not. At least if I rolled up a 3.5 rogue I'd have some kind of niche in combat.
If you're of a mindset that Rogues are primary combatants, then yes I can see your problem. Personally the ability to buff up a failed Skill check by rolling more dice (Skill Mastery says you can add to the skill check, its doesn't specify that you use ED before the skill roll) is a huge thing. Faill that roll to jump a chasm? NP, roll some more dice. Need to make that Disable Device so your fingers don't get hacked off? Have some more dice. Give me more of that over "yay more damage" any day of the week.
Its not clunky either. Roll as many expertise dice as you like, add the highest to your skill check. Where in that is it clunky or silly?
That's fine for the Skill Monkey Rogue, but what about the Thug or Assassin Rogue? They are just left out.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:43AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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As a note: if the fighter is in melee with the enemy both the fighter and rogue deal the same amount of damage. sneak attack works if you have an ally in melee with the enemy.
(Note: even if you are using a ranged attack)
Yes this... POKE poke people....
(its easier than flanking for pox sake).
So its easier than flanking to almost do as much damage as the Fighter some of the time, but worse than any other class?
Ummm the fighter is the best damager in this edition... for single target damage anyway. Its remeniscent of being a striker but not a ranger in 4e.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:45AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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@ fougerec - The point is that there is no reason to not use your ED out of combat. It's just FREE, unless the DM says you get new ED out of combat every 5 minutes or something silly. So you're just taking the "take 10" (that rogues could get in 3.5 anyway) and changing it into a 1d4, then a 1d6, then a 2d6 take best, etc. You're also using a die designed for combat manuevers...clunky idea even if the practice is not.
As for the mindset of a rogue...I'm on the mindset that every class should be able to not feel crappy in combat. A rogue shouldn't be as good as a fighter in an up-and-up fight, of course; but if you can set up some advantages in combat then a rogue should be able to do something impressive: as of now there is no way to replicate that.
the fighter is surrounded he can kill 1 or two guys per round, maybe. the rogue can either guarantee that, or work on those that aren't being hit by the fighter, and he can do it from 100 feet away with a bow (haven't reread how to play so I'm no to sure if there are firing into melee rules or not)
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:46AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2005
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What if the rogue added a complication to their expertise dice. They could grow them in size through engaging appropriate skill use. Sneak up and the D4 becomes a d6 or a d8. Tumble past an opponent and strike from an undefended angle and 2d6 becoems 2d8. Allow the skill angle to synergize in combat.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:47AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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So wait you want to play a guy that isn't a skill monkey and is awesome in combat...I believe I have a class here for you...oh yeah its called a fighter.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:49AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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the fighter is surrounded he can kill 1 or two guys per round, maybe. the rogue can either guarantee that, or work on those that aren't being hit by the fighter, and he can do it from 100 feet away with a bow (haven't reread how to play so I'm no to sure if there are firing into melee rules or not)
Wait...did you just seriously imply that a rogue's job is to finish off enemies a fighter hits so that he can kill 1 guy a round?
Oh, and a fighter with dex can kill people from 100 feet away with a bow...rogues can only kill from 80 feet away, and worse than a fighter.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:50AM
#59
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As a note: if the fighter is in melee with the enemy both the fighter and rogue deal the same amount of damage. sneak attack works if you have an ally in melee with the enemy.
(Note: even if you are using a ranged attack)
Yes this... POKE poke people....
(its easier than flanking for pox sake).
So its easier than flanking to almost do as much damage as the Fighter some of the time, but worse than any other class?
Ummm the fighter is the best damager in this edition... for single target damage anyway. Its remeniscent of being a striker but not a ranger in 4e.
Yes, but now the Rogue deals less damage than the Cleric unless they have a specific set up and then they might deal the same damage. They only outdamage the Wizard if you count the Wizard as using any at-will cantrips that deal damage and an effect, except the Rogue doesn't get the effect.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:51AM
#60
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@ fougerec - The point is that there is no reason to not use your ED out of combat. It's just FREE, unless the DM says you get new ED out of combat every 5 minutes or something silly. So you're just taking the "take 10" (that rogues could get in 3.5 anyway) and changing it into a 1d4, then a 1d6, then a 2d6 take best, etc. You're also using a die designed for combat manuevers...clunky idea even if the practice is not.
As for the mindset of a rogue...I'm on the mindset that every class should be able to not feel crappy in combat. A rogue shouldn't be as good as a fighter in an up-and-up fight, of course; but if you can set up some advantages in combat then a rogue should be able to do something impressive: as of now there is no way to replicate that.
the fighter is surrounded he can kill 1 or two guys per round, maybe. the rogue can either guarantee that, or work on those that aren't being hit by the fighter, and he can do it from 100 feet away with a bow (haven't reread how to play so I'm no to sure if there are firing into melee rules or not)
Yep Disadvantage for firing past someone ally or enemy.
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