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Nov 3, 2012 -- 8:39AM, Krusk wrote:

Exactly. Magic should *also* have major repercussions on societal development.

Yet it doesn't. Game worlds are generally stable, except when they're being destroyed, despite the presence of what amounts to phenomenal technology.

Yes it does. You have entire religions devoted to magic, you have wizarding schools where people study magic, you have entire races that have evolved to use magic in specific ways. You have mage kings, and the main threats to the world are almost always magic.  Magical transportation is always common enough. Whether it is simply a unicorn mount, or a floating airship.

The point you quoted is that these worlds are generally stable. Those religions and schools have existed in basically the same form for hundreds of years, and there's nothing to indicate that their methods, curricula, or teachings have evolved or progressed. The magical races have existed for thousands of years. The mage kings often have lengthy dynasties. People travel by magic, yes - the same way they've done since time out of mind.

You mention magical threats to the world, as do I. That's generally the only time the stability of fantasy societies is threatened. Magic has nothing like the impact on the world that technology does. I suppose certain parts of the world were stable for relatively long periods of time, but in the past two hundred years we've gone from candle light and sailing ships to computers and commercial air travel, and we show little sign (apart from an abortive space program) of not continuing to make world-changing discoveries. There will be computers and air travel in 100 years, but we'd barely recognize them.

Even in Eberron magic has much less impact than technology has in the real world. Warforged have caused major social upheaval, but no one is making them or improving on them, except maybe as a malevolent secret project. I forget how old the lightning rail is, but it doesn't seem to have caused or be causing the rapid expansion and mixing of cultures that the railroad caused. Airships, I gather, are playthings for the military and the rich and have been for decades, whereas in the real world they became a relatively cheap form of transportation relatively quickly.

Athas, for my money, does a better job of showing how magic would impact a culture. People of thousands of years in the past wouldn't even recognize Athas as the same world. There's very little progress in the field of magic, because its in a small group's vested interest that there not be, so stagnation makes sense. The world is also on the cusp of change, and it's possible to imagine more sweeping changes coming over the world as magic becomes more accepted, or psionics come into their own.

So, I agree that magic has an impact, but the worlds in which we imagine it exists are also rather stable and not progressing the way our world is with technology. Therefore (and for other reasons) it's reasonable to imagine that technology in those worlds would also not destabilize anything.

Nov 3, 2012 -- 8:39AM, Krusk wrote:

Magic does have major repercussions on societal development. Societies are by and large focused on magic (like our current societies are focused on technology).  If technology exists, it needs to exist and will drastically change the campaign setting. Suddenly you have tech based religions, engineering academies, cyborg races. Major threats should include things like guys with robot armies. People will be traveling on trains, or a totally different type of airships.

None of that has to happen, certainly not on any timescale the PCs might notice. It's not generally clear how long it took magic to reach the saturation level it has in fantasy societies. The fact that magical innovation isn't skyrocketing in any setting I'm aware of implies high levels of inertia, which could itself be societal, or be due to destructive setbacks such as the complete (and surpisingly regular) obliteration of entire cultures. Or, given that it's a fictional world, maybe some outside force interferes directly with progress. Sure, one person can come up with gunpowder, batteries, or whatever, but somehow the ideas just never catch on. Every time they start to think about it, their thoughts on the topic just evaporate, leaving them to shrug and get back to directing the magical plow.

The only reason a PC can't or shouldn't come up with gunpoweder is if the DM isn't sure how to deal with it on the character level. There's is no in-game reason for it. As this is "What's a Player To Do," I'll recommend that players in this situation not push the DM out of his or her comfort zone, and just accept the blockage, until either the DM changes his or her mind, or the player becomes a DM.

Nov 7, 2012 -- 2:42PM, Salla wrote:

Nov 7, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Centauri wrote:

Nov 7, 2012 -- 7:10AM, SwampDog wrote:

As the DM, I wouldn't allow it.   I use the gunpowder formula as a textbook example of metagaming.    Just because you, the person, know the formula, does not mean that your character does.   Nor does he even know what a battery is.

From this I would assume that all the player has to do is come up with a plausible reason why his character would invent gunpowder and batteries.

Which very well may not exist.

Who decides that and why?

Nov 7, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Salla wrote:

The DM, because that's his job.

It isn't the DM's job is to shut down player ideas for no good out-of-game reason. What's the out-of-game reason a DM would just say no to this idea? What's gained?