These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
I think it's because you're using an interpretation of what's usable with Evasive Reflexes that not everyone agrees with, and so the builds aren't so universal, Tempest.
I personally don't think it overcomes Stand Still, and several others agree with me...all movement for the rest of the turn is pretty useful, even if you pop up more out of nowhere. And triggering it off an opponent you can't even reach? That's a big stretch.
I like the CONCEPT, mind you...I just don't think the execution is going to be so smooth, and it's comparable to a couple other builds that rely on DM fiat to go with your interpretation of the rules. And yes, some of them can be crazy effective.
I think you might have gone just a bit overboard on how cool the mechanic is and inundated us with it, and overdid it a smidge in your excitement.
Realize that most of your posts have been about taking one key element and designing a single character around it that can make it rock. Evasive Reflexes and a guy that is trying to stay out of combat make a good combo.
But three variants of the same trick as a Melee combatant kind of dilutes the effect.
That said:
Of the threebuilds, the best one is the first, because it's designed to be simple adn usable by a DM, and make a very frustrating melee enemy for the DM, if a bit complex to use.
The other two might differ significantly in execution, but they all use the same trick, just the emphasis has changed...and they rely more on your interpretation of how things work, which I don't agree with.
How's the cancer results coming along?
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Something to look at might be the "Cyran Gliding Boots"; though they only work on level ground or while moving downhill, they allow you to take 10' steps instead of 5' steps.
Im a but confused as to where Pounce, Standstill, and Evasive Reflexes are all coming from at lvl 1 Barbarian(unless pounce is a class feature replacing something). Im also a bit of a newbie to character optimizing! >_>
If someone could point me in what directions these Feats(?) are found and how we have all three at lvl 1, that would be fantastic! thank you
Also i didnt see a suggested race for this (i may have missed it). Is there and reccomendations? Warforged is my goal, but am open to anything (human looks like a must tbh)
Im a but confused as to where Pounce, Standstill, and Evasive Reflexes are all coming from at lvl 1 Barbarian(unless pounce is a class feature replacing something). Im also a bit of a newbie to character optimizing! >_>
Pounce is a replacement ability from Complete Champion. Specifically, you exchange the Fast Movement ability for the Spiritual Totem: Lion ability, which at 1st level gives you pounce. Stand Still is a feat (XPH/SRD). It's one of the better ones to consider as an AoO tank. Evasive Reflexes is the ToB feat that's kind of central to all of this.
A first-level human character gets one feat at level one, plus one other bonus feat at level one, plus whatever his class provides. Here, that's Stand Still, Evasive Reflexes, and the Pounce ability (among other things). All three builds assume Human (we said so right under "Sample Builds").
The basic idea behind the flash step is easy to transfer to other builds though. The three presented here are just examples of how to do it. It's not hard to do it on a warforged. Just decide what exactly "it" is that you want to do (knowing that flash-stepping alone is not a key to victory, but rather a way of making AoO combat even more dynamic) and grab Evasive Reflexes (plus some of the AoO trigger options available here).
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
If you included Improved or Greater Combat Reflexes from Dragon #340 would they work with Evasive Reflexes to allow 2 (or 3) 5' steps per provoked AoO? Or could you take an AoO then a 5' step with Improved (or some combination of 3 with Greater)?
If you included Improved or Greater Combat Reflexes from Dragon #340 would they work with Evasive Reflexes to allow 2 (or 3) 5' steps per provoked AoO? Or could you take an AoO then a 5' step with Improved (or some combination of 3 with Greater)?
Sweet Cthulhu on a pogo stick, that's a badly written feat.
I presume that it was supposed to operate like Double Hit (in that in response to a single provoke, you spend a single AoO to make multiple attacks), but the way it's worded it looks like you're spending multiple AoOs in response to a single provoke.
That said, Evasive Reflexes does not actually replace a particular AoO - it is in response to a provoke. If you have those Dragon feats, the enemy is still only provoking once (you're just able to spend more AoOs in response to a particular provoke), so it looks like you'd only be able to 5' step once (or attack two or three times, but not some combination of the two).
This is probably a good thing. It wouldn't be hard to shuffle well over thirty feet in response to a single provoke with those feats, and that's without really trying to go further.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
I'm catching up after months away from the board. I'm happy to see this as someone who mentioned Evasive Reflexes in a comment (bottom of the post) on one of your builds - to which you played coy, not mentioning you had this in the pipeline.
As far as I can tell, with the right gear, nothing short of Thicket of Blades + heavy lockdown can stop this – and interestingly, an enemy Thicket also helps you. It’s hypothetically possible to try a flash-step out of a Thicket, provoking an attack, then using Robilar’s in response to the AoO to continue the flash-step attempt, provoking again, and so on, repeating until one or both of you are out of AoOs for the round. This is risky because the Robilar's AoOs resolve late - but they still happen! (With good enough defenses, Press the Advantage gives you a 2:1 advantage over the typical Thicket user for this, oddly – you provoke, they attack, you step twice, each of which provokes.) I wouldn’t suggest doing this unless you’re crazy, but how many other characters can single-handedly deplete an AoO tank’s attacks as part of normal fare?
Except that, as you point out above yourself: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." which Thicket of Blades does not override. Other impacted textShow
Under Outmaneuver: "Consider what Thicket does to this well-known combination: someone tries to leave your threatened area, and you take a 5’ step to make sure you threaten where he’ll end up. Repeat. With a high enough Dexterity, or Press the Advantage, you can functionally replicate the Mirrored Pursuit counter this way."
Like aelrynth I have my misgivings (several AoOs on one charge from Hold the line? More than one extra 5ft step per round from Press the Advantage?) but again I'm perhaps too conservative (D&D-wise!) and discussing those brings nothing to the table: it's between DM and players.
In the end the part I like the most is the thought of combining flash-step with a standard Lock, to allow for better value through repositioning. So a strategic/build insight rather than a trick. With that in mind, I think the 2nd build is my current favourite (I've been known to change my mind...).
I actually hadn't noticed Evasive Reflexes on Vidar. Andarious, that might prove tricky at times to make work with PbP, since the DM often resolves a bunch of the enemy actions at once. We'll see...
EDIT: Alright, I forgot that part in the introduction, but it seems like a really good swap: two feats and some skill ranks in order to actually do damage while flash-steping...
Ok, Asside from the fact that it takes two additional feats (Dodge, Mobility), tumble ranks, and Dex 15 , wouldn't Side Step (Mini) be a good addition, as it allows you to make a 5' Step after making an attack of opportunity? Or am I missing something?
