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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 9:15PM
#1
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I think the biggest area we've seen power creep is at first level. In the olden days, the first level character had the worst to-hit number, poor saving throws, no skills/traits/feats/backgrounds/variants/archetypes etc.
Today, using both Herolab to create a first level PFRPG character and using the character builder to create a first level 4E character, the amount of "stuff" you can front-load them with is unweildly -especially for new players to the game.
Don't get me wrong, I think all of that stuff characters can do is fun, but it loses its appeal at first level when it's frontloaded onto the character. The power at first level also serves to hinder the long game in that in order to continue driving character advancement, the power curve needs to steadily increase at each successive higher level.
Add onto that Multi-Classing, Power-Swapping, Prestige-Classing, Paragon-Pathing and you have a game that has blown its proverbial lunch by level 10.
I am not a fan of dead levels. No one wants to level up and only get some HP. But I am not a fan of feats/bonus feats/backgrounds/skills and all of this other stuff that frontloads on the first level character.
I think characters should get a meaningful choice at each level on top of static power increases. I think this would drive the players to continue to want to advance, keep the game unbroken longer, and leave something truly special for the higher levels.
This myriad of front-load options only serves to make 1st level increasingly powerful,needing to be surmounted by each successive level.
Let's put 1st level back where it belongs.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard
con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb
1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic.
it?" -anon
"Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it."
-Maxperson
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 9:22PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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One of the nice things about 4e was not spending my first level living in fear of house cats.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 9:33PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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right and in 4e it was also nice to have all the powers of an 5th level character at first level, and start with abilities that most superheros would envy.
warrent- heres the issue, all those feats all those prestige classes etc. what they do is make it so that a character built from a concept is in no way as powerful as a character built for power. all the options mean that if another player does not choose a similar build they will be extremely weak compared to a character that is optimized. The only way to get rid of all that is if things like feats really dont make a character more effective.
and heres the big issue... if I build a character and make him well rounded, say a fighter with a feat in use of a bow, a feat in use of a melee weapon, a few general feats to fit my concept... how much worse will I be combat wise than a character who spends all feats on maximizing one aspect of combat, like trips or no of attacks?
If the answer is the rounded character is dog meat to a optimized character, the system is broken.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 9:37PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Yeah I'm not a fan of 3e either.
Good thing 4e shrank that gap too.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 9:44PM
#5
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The point is, what fun is it to get to higher levels when you have all of this front-loaded power at first level? What is there really to aspire to? You have so many options and resources and complexity that even low level combats take an achingly long time to resolve.
Higher levels devolve into Pin-N-Spin the BBEG until he's dead, or involve some massively powered spells. This stuff starts to become commonplace at 10th level. In both 4e/PF/3.x.
Why can't we dial back the starting add-ons somewhat? Why can't a character start with a weapon, money, HP, and a background....that's it?
2nd level maybe he can do something like choose a feat. 3rd level a new option opens up.
That way power creep is incremental and each level is meaningful and something to look forward to.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard
con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb
1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic.
it?" -anon
"Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it."
-Maxperson
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 9:49PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Because if i wanted to be a blank character with no unique abilities whatsoever I'd play a non-mage in 3e.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 10:57PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2011
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I imagine this concept could work, and work well if the entire game structure was made to acomidate it. PCs do not exist in a vacuum. It is easy to look at 4e characters and say that they're more powerful than say 3X characters, but that's not really the case. This is because monsters are stronger in 4e than in 3X. The 4e characters could be fighting standard goblins that would wipe the floor with standard 3X goblins after all.
It would be also be very hard to offer a modular aproach to this, becuase there would need to be ways to scale monster power with PC power. I guess it could be done, I just imagine it would be rather complicated.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:00PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2012
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I really dont see the power of uberness in a 4e character at level 1. You have more hp, but then again monsters hit harder so you get a little more wriggle room but nothing unbalanced. Standard character has 2 at will abilites that do 1x weapon damage and a minor special (snare for tanks, knock back etc for others) You get 2 encounter powers you get 1 daily power your gear is the same as other versions of D&D and generally everything is compariable in power. What you dont get is a gimpped fighter with 1 attack roll for 3 levels or a wizard who has to only spam magic missle for most of an entire adventure 
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8 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:35PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2010
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General answer: Characters should be however powerful the table decides they should be. For this reason total modularity is a requirement for 5th to succeed.
My tables answers: Characters should be common men, with just the slightest spark of something special that may one day lead them to greatness if they work hard and are very lucky. They should be just slightly better than absolute average, though being even less than that can be quite a bit of fun. "Hero" shouldn't be a proper synonym for PC until well into their careers. While I don't ask for this to be the 'default' power level, if it isn't equally easy to implement fully we won't have any reason to play 5th edition.
Regarding the OP: pretty much agree with your reasoning as well.
DISCLAIMER - Everything said by anyone is absolute subjective opinion. There are no objective claims being made by me, or anyone else, unless they overtly state 'The following is an objective claim'. At this point if you choose to be offended by anything I (or anyone else) say the problem is ENTIRELY your own.
WotC won't let us give them money because they won't produce a game we want to play.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 26, 2012 - 2:22AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2012
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Slightly to the side, I have 2 newish gamers in my group and both of them found 4e much easier to understand than any other edition they tried. So level 1 might seem a lot of info but 4e does a really good job of clearly displaying abilities and how things interact.
As for level 1 power level - it depends
Ive run games from beggers to godlings at level 1 depending on what the players and I felt like - as long as the new rules allow some form of scaling of power then I think we will all be happy.
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