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7 months ago ::
Oct 24, 2012 - 5:30PM
#1
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2012
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So it turns out that the other thread with a title related to power sources is actually just another wizard/fighter debate, so instead of derailing that I figured I would start a new thread.
What do people think of power sources? Would you like them to make a re-appearance in 5e the same way they were in 4e, just flavor and a quick one-word basic idea of the class? Or would you like to see them make a mechanical difference?
Personally, I think power sources are a good way to think of class concepts. Earlier in a thread about 5e classes I said I liked the idea of 6 core classes: fighter(martial), rogue(stealth), wizard(arcane), cleric(divine), druid(primal), and psion(psionic). Then other classes would be thought of as alternative versions and hybridizations of those classes. They would present two class lists, one would be the central class-list consisting of those above classes, and would emphasize multiclassing. Want to play a paladin? Fighter/Cleric.
Then they would have additional classes that would be the actual ready-made paladin that would function differently from a fighter/cleric. This list would also include things like barbarian and monk, which aren't really a hybrid, but aren't enough of a spring-board to create an entirely additional list of classes the same way someone can take a wizard and go, "How about we combine it with fighter for a swordmage? What about a stealthy spellthief? How about they have innate control over their spell power instead of studying a spellbook? What about controlling similar powers through a pact with a magical being?"
Essentially, I think power source should stay as nothing more than words. Having power source makes it much easier for a player to go, "Hey, what's the stealth/psionic class, Bob?"
"Oh, that's the 'lurk', Joe."
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:59AM
#2
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Personally, just personally I'd like for there to be Power Sources in 5E but I'm not married to the concept, if they don't get in it's no deal breaker.
If we were to have them I'd preffer them to have some crunch to them not only fluff, but again if they're only fluff it's no big problem.
I consider PS a elegant compromise for those that want 4 big classes and those who want a larger number of more focused classes.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 1:48AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I like power source for spell casters 'cause it tells me where they get their power from and supplies a broad framework for me to apply to character concept. Some mostly martial characters really work well with power source, like rangers and barbarians being primal fighters. The paladin as a divine fighter is a cool concept. The mundane concepts weren't served as well by power source, I don't think. Maybe it's the term? I don't see a fighter as having some martial source of power that they bring to bear. I don't see how a rogue has an expert power source. What is an expert power source anyway? It conjures an image in my brain of a source of power that's particularly good at its job.. of supplying power. So yeah the martial and expert umbrella of characters I never really liked that whole notion of a power source. It's skills. Maybe instead of power source it's training? I think the other issue is you can apply a martial power source to pretty much any attack action, including aiming a spell. Any time someone attacks you and you get a dex mod to armour, you're using some kind of martial skill to take advantage of your reflexes there. You can't really universally apply an arcane power source to basic actions performed in the course of combat. It doesn't make sense to my brain. So yeah I've loved the idea of power source, but I would not personally apply the term to mundane characters that don't have any overarching theme like a life of worship or a primal rage. Maybe what I'm troubled about is "power source" feels like an external thing you draw on. You don't really draw on external skills. Your skills are yours, they came from somewhere but once you're done learning them they don't come from anywhere. Magic is different, generally it taps some kind of "other." Also, the process of learning the skills necessary to tap that power are the same processes you use to learn how to fight or sneak or fish or talk to your neighbour. So yeah, if we learn stuff in fundamentally the same way and mundane skills don't come from anywhere, the term "power source" doesn't really apply that well. However, it applies to magic and the supernatural really well.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 7:48AM
#4
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The mundane concepts weren't served as well by power source, I don't think. Maybe it's the term? I don't see a fighter as having some martial source of power that they bring to bear. I don't see how a rogue has an expert power source. What is an expert power source anyway? It conjures an image in my brain of a source of power that's particularly good at its job.. of supplying power. So yeah the martial and expert umbrella of characters I never really liked that whole notion of a power source. It's skills. Maybe instead of power source it's training?
There was no "expert" power source. Rogues fell under the Martial power source, just like Rogues. All the Martial power source does is identify that these characters gain their ability through self improvement and skill. That's literally what it is. All it does is identify and categorize classes that fall under that category in a way that other than "The classes that don't get spells".
As for the OP, I want to see Power Sources come back. I want to see them expanded upon, and made mechanically distinct. I want to see each power source have its own resource mechanic (example: Martial characters use expertise dice, arcane casters use spell slots, divine casters use Channel Divinity, Psionics use Power Points, and so on) and ability list that characters with access to that source draw from. Much like how the Wizard and Sorcerer draw from the same spell list, I would like to see a common maneuver list that Rogues and Fighters both have access to. Each class can have their own unique list made up of abilities from this list, but there should be overlap. For example, in later 3.5 supplements we started getting spells that were unique to the Sorcerer, despite drawing from the same list as the Wizard. I'd like to see an expansion on that, where you have a common core of abilities, most of which are shared by other similar classes, but each class has its own set of unique abilities that help define it as a separate entity. So a Fighter and Rogue might both have access to maneuvers that increase damage, gain advantage, and trip enemies, but the Rogue might lack access to the reduce incoming damage maneuver, or have access to a maneuver that lets him stealth better, or whatever. This obviously doesn't cover a fraction of it, but roughly that sort of proportion, 3/4 of the general list available to almost all, 1/4 that is restricted or unique.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 7:58AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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All it does is identify and categorize classes that fall under that category in a way that other than "The classes that don't get spells".
This, exactly. "Martial power source" is a bit more respectful than some of the other terms used on the forums in particular - "mundanes" comes to mind. Furthermore, it emphasizes that their categorization is because of something they are, rather than something they aren't (spellcasters).
Power sources are a very good thing. They convey a coherent similarity, yet still allow for differences among classes within one source. They also can convey mechanical tendencies, as they did in 4e. Martial classes tended to have an extra bit of damage to them, arcane tended to have more control, divine a bit more healing. These associations are loose, but they are there, and that's something worthwhile.
Classes shouldn't exist in total isolation from another. Wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers are related - distant cousins perhaps, but related nonetheless, and that relation should be recognized. They're absolutely not related to things like druids, and power source is a great way of succinctly describing fundamental differences in origin, outlook, tendencies, etc.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 8:24AM
#6
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I like power sources, but I think it was a mistake to classify classes that way, as became apparent when they started mixing power source powers within a class, such as the seeker.
Individual abilities can be classified by power source. Which isn't all that different from how it was classified before. You have Arcane Spells, Divine Prayers, Psionic Disciplines, and Martial Maneuvers (or Exploits, but I really didn't like that term). Fourth Edition added Primal Invocations and Shadow something-or-other, but I have no idea why Primal can't be shoved back into the Divine folder and why Shadow can't be shoved back into the Arcane folder.
Plenty of classes can crossover between sources. An assassin may supplment his martial maneuvers with some shadowy arcane spells. A theurge may mix divine prayers and arcane magic. A ranger can employ martial maneuvers and divine prayer.
The power source classification always existed. It just wasn't as in your face as it was in 4e, and there's really no reason to label a class with a power source.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 8:36AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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What do people think of power sources? Would you like them to make a re-appearance in 5e the same way they were in 4e, just flavor and a quick one-word basic idea of the class? Or would you like to see them make a mechanical difference?
As part of a class description they are fine, but once you try to work them into the game's organization they cause more problems then they fix. Trying to force classes into too rigid of an organization chart was one of 4e's problems. If you have power sources and roles, then people are going to want every role for every power source and you end up trying to force things to fill in the grid.
Plus, when you try to tie the mechanics into the system you run into numerous debatable points of organization and classification. Some class concepts don't neatly fall into one power source, an assassin might be shadow, arcane, divine or martial. Many combine a power source with a bit of martial, barbarian, is a good example. Others are debatable which power source they use, wizard manipulate arcane energy but only through mundane knowledge and skill, they have no inherent arcane energy. Then there are questions of why make one things a power source and not another, Shadow is really a subset of arcane that uses one particular element exclusively.
There are games that successfully tie power sources into mechanics but they are games where the games mechanics and story material are tightly tied together, not fairly generic games like D&D.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 8:38AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I like power sources, but I think it was a mistake to classify classes that way, as became apparent when they started mixing power source powers within a class, such as the seeker.
Individual abilities can be classified by power source. Which isn't all that different from how it was classified before. You have Arcane Spells, Divine Prayers, Psionic Disciplines, and Martial Maneuvers (or Exploits, but I really didn't like that term). Fourth Edition added Primal Invocations and Shadow something-or-other, but I have no idea why Primal can't be shoved back into the Divine folder and why Shadow can't be shoved back into the Arcane folder.
Plenty of classes can crossover between sources. An assassin may supplment his martial maneuvers with some shadowy arcane spells. A theurge may mix divine prayers and arcane magic. A ranger can employ martial maneuvers and divine prayer.
The power source classification always existed. It just wasn't as in your face as it was in 4e, and there's really no reason to label a class with a power source.
Mostly in agreement with you here, but I did like primal as a source. Shadow didn't have as much distinction I don't think but primal characters are definitely different from divine characters. I mean, you don't have to call all of a druid's components primal. Their wild shape could be primal, but their spells could be divine. If you don't box character classes into the source, it becomes possible to create broad classifications that all have certain common traits. It serves the game much better as a classification for abilities, independent of classes. Seerow's mention of linking mechanics to power source could work with the various spellcasting systems that might precipitate someday.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 8:42AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I have no idea why Primal can't be shoved back into the Divine folder and why Shadow can't be shoved back into the Arcane folder.
Because non-deist natural forces deserve to exist, in my opinion. Take Dark Sun as an example. The gods are absent, but the world itself still has forces in it that can't be adequately explained by the remaining power sources. Now, this is only an example, and it's easy to say that we should add it for Dark Sun only, but I would argue that Primal deserves to exist in its own right, independent of setting, the way Divine and Arcane do.
I agree on the shadow thing though, that one seemed forced. Shadow mages are still using arcane magic.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Oct 25, 2012 - 8:42AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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There was no "expert" power source. Rogues fell under the Martial power source, just like Rogues. All the Martial power source does is identify that these characters gain their ability through self improvement and skill. That's literally what it is. All it does is identify and categorize classes that fall under that category in a way that other than "The classes that don't get spells".
Oh yeah.. Wrecan's post reminded me tha rogue stuff was called exploits and I got muddled. I still think that the phrase "martial power source" is weird. "Arcane power source" makes a narritive sense and I could use that as part of the language used by NPCs in a campaign world. "Martial power source" just sounds... I dunno. It sounds like they're relying on something outside themselves. Like their martial power source is the army stood behind them. That'd be one hell of a martial power source. Or maybe it's their tools or something... dunno, but it doesn't say to me the same thing as a divine power source.
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