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5 months ago ::
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:28PM
#191
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If we remove the "straight-jacketing" it's already non-crucial, regardless of your futile, hidebound protestations to the contrary.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:51PM
#192
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If we remove the "straight-jacketing" it's already non-crucial, regardless of your futile, hidebound protestations to the contrary.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 13, 2013 - 9:25AM
#193
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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20 pages about batman. Can't we all agree he is lawful badass?
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5 months ago ::
Jan 13, 2013 - 9:43AM
#194
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2011
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If he is Lawful Badass, then he is not Neutral or Chaotic Badass...
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 8:57AM
#195
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I would like someting a bit more thourough on your intrepretations of the alignments I have brought up and your intrepretations on the actions of those characters playing those alignments.
Of course if you don't want to it's not a big deal I wanted your opinion.
Sure.
It is established that the Ranger has a Chaotic Good alignment and a hatred for gnolls. His actions are not outside the "confines" of this description...but one has to realize there are no "confines" for player actions. Are his actions Good? No. He is killing a foe that has surrendered and is helpless. Is this an Evil act? Yes. Does that mean it's "outside" his alignment somehow? No. If he CONTINUED to act Evil could it and should it shift his alignment? Sure. That is a great discussion to have with the player...it is also important AT THE TIME for the DM to mention to the player "So you know, slaying them is an Evil act". That is NOT a judgement statement from the DM though as the PC can do as they please. All it does is give the player tangible, informed data regarding the action he wants to take with a character...it allows him to make a more informed decision...a decision with full agency. If he decides his characters hatred his greater than his morality in this regard, then so be it...but the player KNOWS what is being weighed up front.
Never is there a point to tell someone "That is not how your alignment would do such & such".
Similarly, you were playing a Lawful Good cleric. Strictly speaking, your actions were in keeping with both axis of your alignment...foes had surrendered and you were binding them and wanted to keep them from being slaughtered. That is both Lawful & Good. Those things however do not mean they are "correct" for your character. Did they play to your alignment? Yes. If that is what you prefered at the time, then that is "good" in regards to your character.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:07AM
#196
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But Batman breaks these laws often: Felony Assault, Unlawful Entry, Criminal Property Damage, Reckless Endangering, Terroristic Threatening, countless firearm and dangerous weapon charges, not to mention Speeding, Reckless Driving, Illegal Parking, unregistered vehicle... I'm pretty sure I can list a long list of Laws broken by Batman on any given comic or movie version. Probably why he has to wear a mask and hide his identity. There be an outstanding Warrant for his arrest otherwise.
You are mistaking "laws" with "Law". A VERY common mistake regarding alignment. Mans laws are immaterial in regards to Batman (or Lawful Good really) because they are flawed. Batman DOES however respect the law deeply and, more importantly, he respects the highest law...Justice. He has a code, he has a system or governance for himself and his partners...he has honor...he follows all these things to the best of his ability and he always seeks to make sure crime and lawlessness does not run free. That he has to work outside the "system" is condemnation of the system, not of Batman. It is no different from a Paladin having to work against an ineffectual or even Evil government. "Lawful" is as much a cosmic force as "Good" is and a perverted or impotent "law" is not "Lawful".
Also, I will point out that for the majority of his career comic-book Batman IS a fully registered and authorized deputy of the law itself and is, in fact, in no way a criminal. Batman deeply respects the law and officers of the law...he even defers to them when they are honest, truthful and acting in the pursuit of justice. It is only when their hands are tied that he goes above & beyond them.
To me, Batman is Chaotic Good. He justifies his actions even though it may be a direct violation of laws meant to protect everyone, including the criminals. I think a Lawful good person in Batman movies is the Inspector. He wants to catch the criminals, but he chooses not to break laws to do it. He feels stuck having to play by the rules. Henceforth he leaves it to Batman to do the things his Law Enforcement is unwilling to do... break the rules to catch the bad guys as a vigilante.
This is why you are mistaken about alignment and Batman. Chaotic characters do not steadfastly hold to self-imposed rules of conduct nor would they EVER impose those rules on others. Batman does just that CONSTANTLY. It is a core, defining part of his character. He will not kill (PERIOD. Full stop) nor will he allow others to kill around him. He also plans near-obsessively and favors order & structure...all things in their place and a place for all things. He respects a hierarchy of command and authority and he has crafted entire methodologies for his own organization and has those traditions placed upon his partners as clear expectations. All these things are fairly incompatable with a Chaotic being.
You are making the classic mistake of equating "I work outside the law" with "Chaotic".
Apart from this one thing (I totally don't think Batman is lawful good ;p) I agree with Yagami on his stand with alignments.
Thank you. We are free to disagree on alignment stuff too. Hopefully my explanation given will help clarify my stance regarding Batman.
If you choose to play with alignments good. If you choose not to, good. If it causes too much problem in your game, then don't use it. It shouldn't though if follow Yagami's advice. It wasn't meant to be a straight jacket. Alignment exist though in the game. It's just a question of whether you are going to role play a specific alignment with it's restrictions (bad idea, starts arguments), or let your actual play dictate your alignment, and dm decides what that alignment is based on your play when determining alignment matters in the game. (This is what my table uses.;p)
I also don't understand why defining what's "good" and "evil" is so confusing in the game for some people. I hope some of you folks are not that confused defining them in RL, cause that would seriously concern me hehe.
Indeed.
Alignment is part of the dnd world... Just because players and dm handle it so badly, with arguments, straight jacket decisions, terrible role playing, don't make alignment non-crucial. Don't let it cause these type of problems, period.
Extremely well said.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:26AM
#197
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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I believe Batman is Lawful Evil. 
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:18AM
#198
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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That is fine. I think he is Lawful Good and I will take thinking over believing any time. Especially since thinking requires thought and belief does not.
Depends on what view of Lawful you take.
There's an interesting bit in The New Batman Adventures animated series where Batman busts into the Penguin's apartment to interrogate him, to which Penguin sarcastically asks to see his search warrant before opening fire on him. While this is typical Batman behavior, Peguin oddly raises an interesting point. Batman is a vigilante operating outside of Gotham law, and technically, he illegally broke into Penguin's home, and under the Castle Doctrine, Penguin could have killed Batman and been completely within the law to do so.(Yes I've been on tvtropes a lot lately, why do you ask?)
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:28AM
#199
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That is fine. I think he is Lawful Good and I will take thinking over believing any time. Especially since thinking requires thought and belief does not.
Depends on what view of Lawful you take.
There's an interesting bit in The New Batman Adventures animated series where Batman busts into the Penguin's apartment to interrogate him, to which Penguin sarcastically asks to see his search warrant before opening fire on him. While this is typical Batman behavior, Peguin oddly raises an interesting point. Batman is a vigilante operating outside of Gotham law, and technically, he illegally broke into Penguin's home, and under the Castle Doctrine, Penguin could have killed Batman and been completely within the law to do so.(Yes I've been on tvtropes a lot lately, why do you ask?)
Correct. It depends on whether or not you take the correct or incorrect view on Lawful. If you see "Lawful" and just see "the law" you are misunderstanding the alignment. Both axis have to do with the cosmic forces of Law/Chaos and Good/Evil. Law is about order, structure, tradition, habit, planning, goal-orientation, etc...these are all things that Batman possesses in spades.
Again, man's law does not come into the equation. Will Lawful characters seek to uphold those laws? Yes, but the intent of the law is far more important than the letter of it. A law that does nothing to stop crime is no law at all just as a law that promotes chaos is no law at all.
In your example, the Penguin is a criminal. He is a murderer, thief, extortionist, gun-runner, liar, and just about everything else a despicable being can be. He is Evil and he is free. That is a subversion of justice. Man's law has failed to stop the Penguin. Bringing justice to the Penguin is not a chaotic act if it ignores the law. Batman serves justice...no, he serves JUSTICE...that is Lawful with a capital L.
It is why the DC Trinity works so well as counter-points to each other. Batman is Lawful Good (focusing on self-sacrifice and order), Wonder Woman is Chaotic Good (focusing on the triumph of the individual and freedom), and Superman is Neutral Good (focusing on seeking the best for all no matter what and by any means). It is why Superman is the fulcrum between Batman and Wonder Woman narratively. It creates the bridge between the Trinity just as it allows Superman to be best friends with Batman and similarly friendly with Wonder Woman. He lies between their two views. Similarly, it's what creates the friction (sometimes sexual) between Batman and Wonder Woman because they do have differing views but still want the same things...they simply go about it differently.
EDIT: I'll also add that generally Neutral Good characters (Like Superman) are the traditional "moral compass" characters of comics...the ones that are the go-to for what is RIGHT. Another example of this is Spider-Man, a Neutral Good character through-and-through. He and Superman have very VERY similar outlooks on right & wrong, good & evil.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 1:01PM
#200
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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In your example, the Penguin is a criminal. He is a murderer, thief, extortionist, gun-runner, liar, and just about everything else a despicable being can be. He is Evil and he is free. That is a subversion of justice. Man's law has failed to stop the Penguin. Bringing justice to the Penguin is not a chaotic act if it ignores the law. Batman serves justice...no, he serves JUSTICE...that is Lawful with a capital L.
Except at this point in the show, Penguin was a Villain with Good Publicity, and as far as the police knew, he hadn't done anything, and chances are his money came from a very successful nightclub he ran. He is evil and free, but the law couldn't touch him ebcause he hadn't done anything yet.
Meanwhile, Batman breaks into his apartment, beats him up, and dangles him off a balcony ("just like old times" as Batman puts it) to force him to tell him about the current villain, who as far as the LAW was concerned, was completely unrelated to him.
Now last I checked, breaking and entering, assault, and possible threat of murder were not exactly Lawful behavior.
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