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Oct 23, 2012 -- 1:34PM, LunarSavage wrote:

Oct 23, 2012 -- 1:29PM, YagamiFire wrote:

Oct 23, 2012 -- 1:22PM, LunarSavage wrote:

We're discussing a character's alignment as defined by the game of D&D.....

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Did you really think that statement through?

We're ultimately discussing the definition of the alignment here, and using batman (one of the hardest fictional characters to define in history) as the tool to do it.

Each incarnation represents something different.

My statement had to do more with the definition the devs give us and less to do with batman.

Out of interest, can anyone post the definitions of each alignment as presented in each DMG from the various editions? I'm only familiar with the 3.5 one. 

You lost me. I find nothing hard to define about Batman. I have 70 years of history to draw on to understand the character. That makes him very easy for me to understand.

As I said earlier in the thread, I am only discussing Batman as the character is expressed over his 70 years of existence...that is, the sum of the Batman we get in the comics with a smattering of expressions of that character in other mediums (when they closely reflect the comics) but those are given less consideration.

I think that is because they view alignment from the same mechanical standpoint as things like HP and AC, and a lot of players view alignment as something more intrinsic to the setting, is where that disconnect comes from, which is basically what Yagami is saying.

This.

Fair enough. Though, I'd say Batman has changed over the years. I mean...in the beginning, he used a gun. Then bam, he didn't. Do you think the Batman from the 50s would have done some of the things he's had to do say in...the 90s? Because of that, I'd say he's hard to define. In most cases, yes, I'd agree LG is his alignment. But CG and LN are cases that could easily be made in many instances.

As for Two-Face...I'd be inclined to say NE. As he doesn't care where the coin lands and usually has his own interest at heart. In fact, there have been a few times where he's not consulted the coin, IIRC. 

Two-Face is CE.

Chaotic Evil - "The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value."

This is Two-Face to a T. However, depending on how his flip comes up he might act Good or Neutral. Harvey, as a man, was Lawful Neutral. Did he have "Good" tendencies? Absolutely. But the Law was what was most important above all else. It was about JUSTICE. But he was not tempered by the pure heart that Batman has. This is what lead to his fall. And it FLIPPED him...from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Evil. Occasionally the man that was Harvey can manifest through Good acts when the coin (and his psychosis) allows it.

NOTHING has value to Two-Face. The value of any object is dependent only on a flip of a coin...it's dumb, blind chance...that is value-less.

Whenever a characters alignment is to be determined, it is very important to consider how they express that alignment. For example, Neutral Evil is all about Evil just as Neutral Good is in fact all about Good. Neutral can generally be considered blank in that regard. I think that is what trips up people A LOT with alignment.

Oct 23, 2012 -- 2:39PM, Zaramon wrote:

Oct 23, 2012 -- 2:30PM, LunarSavage wrote:

*rolls eyes*

leave it up to the orcs and other posters to not have a sense of humor. 

I hope this doesn't count as a violation of the code of conduct, but can I ask what was removed, and why? I wasn't here to see what was said.

@Yagami: Also, I laughed at the pun "it FLIPPED him..." I get that it does have a point, with the coin pointing to the symbolic meaning of random events bringing his other side out, I just thought it was funny too. Like they say,  laughing matters.

Hah yeah a lot of Batman stuff, especially the early stuff, is pretty blatant about its symbolism. It is primarily for kids, after all.