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Ancient Celtic culture is relatively unfamiliar to me.
 
As far as I can tell, the Druids went extinct by the 200s, in ancient times, during the (Late) Classical Period. The Romans suppressed and killed them. By contrast, the Bards continued to flourish thru the Medieval Period, with writings mentioning them from the 1300s to the 1500s, and they even survived (in various forms) in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, into the 1700s.

Moreorless.

As such, Druids and Bards seem to have nothing to do with eachother. Despite the fact both are ancient Celtic sacred communities, the information we have about each of them seem completely unrelated.

I am comfortable disconnecting the D&D Druid from the D&D Bard.

As such, the Druids are almost completely unknown, but the Bards have some reasonable accounts about them.

The most remarkable aspect of the Bard is they are a “caste”, a sacred family whose status transmitted from father to son. Nobles hired Bards, as sacred recorders, to memorialize the nobles ancestors (thus preserve history). And also to celebrate achievements of the living nobles. Thus Bards were typically members of the courts of nobles. It seems, Bards who couldnt find a noble patron also existed, as itinerant minstrels traveling from town to town, often with disreputable connotations.

The Bards were known for both praise and satire. The understanding is: the songs of praise magically empowered the family of the noble, and secured their lasting success. By contrast, if a noble failed to pay the Bard, the songs of satire would magically disempower the noble family, even to the point of causing boils to erupt on the face of the patron.

Even into modern times (roughly 1600s onward), nobles continued to hire members of Bard families as poets, lawyers, and - notably - physicians. It seems healing is part of the mythological accuracy.

Fun fact: The “earliest” reference to Bards refers to the traditions of the Tuatha de Danan, in other words, the First Bards are Sidhe, who equate with the French Fae (faerie) and the Norse Alvar (elves). In this tradition, the name is reinterpreted as a pun where the Tuatha represent the nobles, the De represent the priests (possibly Druids?), and the Danan represent the sacred (Fae!) family of Bards.



 
As such, the D&D 5e Bard seems able to retain mythological accuracy well. I want the core flavor of the Bard class to be Celtic (Irish, but also Scottish and Welsh). Try zero in on the genuine medieval flavor. Bards are children of Bards, albeit some were more successful than others. (I dont know anything about Celtic “adoption” customs to know if its possible to “become” a Bard, but I doubt it. It seems there are no female Bards in royal courts, but surely they would grow up mastering the family traditions? - and this in itself can make an interesting story.)

Even with the Sidhe/Fae/Elf connotations - actually especially because of such animistic sensibilities - it still seems the Bard is more than anything else, a Psionic class. The song is the power of the mind. The Celtic culture revered this power.



(Confusingly, the “Bard” is different from the “Fili”, even tho both seem to serve similar cultural roles. It is the Fili who transmitted the tales about ancient Celtic traditions.)

Oct 23, 2012 -- 10:42PM, Lokiron wrote:

A goal could be to make the new bard appealing to people like THEMNGMNT who don't want music in combat (or did you mean completely?). I don't mind the music part (let it be performance, though!), but would hate to be totally focused on it. A bard who is unable to do without music is no bard, if you ask of. Actually, that is a point of the bard: even if you strip it of one of its skills, it would still be somewhat capable. At least that applies to the well rounded build.

The Bard can have something like Wizard “traditions”. Make the default Bard unequivocally a medieval Irish songster. Then have other traditions expand the class options to encompass other poetic traditions, such as the Norse Skald, and non-musical arts.

A good bardic word might be “heritages”.

Also, the reallife Bards served as lawyers, literally, so I think its ok for the default D&D Bard to include non-musical oratory - as long as the emphasis of the magical power rests in praise-versus-satire, glorification-versus-mockery.

Oct 23, 2012 -- 10:54PM, Garthanos wrote:

Oct 23, 2012 -- 10:36PM, Haldrik wrote:

Ancient Celtic culture is relatively unfamiliar to me.
 
As far as I can tell, the Druids went extinct by the 200s, in ancient times, during the (Late) Classical Period. The Romans suppressed and killed them. By contrast, the Bards continued to flourish thru the Medieval Period, with writings mentioning them from the 1300s to the 1500s, and they even survived (in various forms) in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, into the 1700s. 

Probably through out the history of man... the bard however in those older tales are more hostorian high rank in culture... the fact that this person of power who most definitely had magic associated with him is connected to the rogue by some posters on here show we arent dealing with the same archetype in all the incarnations...  the attacks with sound bit is also quite disconnected. 

I think there needs to be some distinct classes going on. 

Sounds good to me.

“throughout the history of man [humanity] :P ”.

The comparisons of Irish Bards to other poet castes even as far away as India, lead to the possibility of a Proto-Indoeuro custom, thus making the Bards evolve from a specific tradition already several thousands of years old.



“the bard in older tales are more historian high rank in culture.”

Sounds right to me. The fact, the “Tuatha De Danan” are identified as three castes *proves* the Bards-as-Danan are at least understood to be ancient elites.



“that this person of power who most definitely had magic associated with him is connected to the rogue by some posters on here show we arent dealing with the same archetype.”

Maybe the Roguish archetype more specifically relates to stories about the Gypsies (Romanis)? 

If so, the Roguish connotations could be a separate optional Bard heritage. But this Gypsy might make more sense as *Rogue* tradition, namely a Rogue build who dabbles in magic and fortune telling.

Saelorn raises an important issue with the instrument differences and how many choices of instrument are simply not practical. Of course, if they are equal anyone would choose the most practical forms of performance, which is a little boring. While a piano makes no sense in combat, a player should have the option to utilize such cumbersome instruments. The easy solution is to grant the bard competence (proficiency) with all forms of performance, but this is a little strange too.. Another solution is to remove instruments from combat. I like that solution, but some might not, and it is limiting as well.

I see the music or stories as a means to memorize and pass on oral traditions, so the performance aspect or songs fits well into the bard using a skill or invoking a spell. This is a stark contrast from the wizard using books, making pacts, or following a bloodline, or a cleric using prayers. The bard uses music and performance as a memorization technique that can draw from all magic. Song can also be viewed as a rudimentary step into psionics, if you can accept training your mind and voice (song and performance) is similar to psionics in reference to meditation.