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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 9:39PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2010
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D&D has a rich history of monsters who are too similar to each other. It's a game where there are differences between ogres, trolls, and giants, and ghosts are not wraiths which are not spectres which are not allips which are not nightshades.
But, when it comes to demons and devils, does the nonsense go too far?
What, really, is the difference between a pit fiend and a balor? An erinyes and a succubus? Quasits and imps?
Both families share common visual traits; fire, blood, wings, spaded tails, horns, messing with humanoids, mating with humanoids, possessing humanoids...
1. Should demons and devils be merged?
2. If not or if so, why?
3. If not or if so, how?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 9:49PM
#2
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D&D has a rich history of monsters who are too similar to each other. It's a game where there are differences between ogres, trolls, and giants, and ghosts are not wraiths which are not spectres which are not allips which are not nightshades.
But, when it comes to demons and devils, does the nonsense go too far?
What, really, is the difference between a pit fiend and a balor? An erinyes and a succubus? Quasits and imps?
Both families share common visual traits; fire, blood, wings, spaded tails, horns, messing with humanoids, mating with humanoids, possessing humanoids...
1. Should demons and devils be merged?
2. If not or if so, why?
3. If not or if so, how?
I could go either way. I wouldn't care if a demon or a devil was plotting to destroy a village. Finely seperating them into devils must be lawful and demons must be chaotic is a little rediculous to me, especially with Daemons (neutral demons/devils) being introduced in pathfinder. The more I think about it, I think traditional demons should be the underlings, and devils the more powerful masters. Azmodeus, Dagon, Orcus would be devils. Demons would be the soldiers and servants.
My two copper.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:15PM
#3
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Why does the game's setting have both a human empire and a human barbarian horde? They both have feet, arms, and a head, they both have soft skin and hair, they all use swords, its practically identical! They're both humans, do we really need more than one human culture?
Sarcasm aside, yes, the fiendish outsiders look similar. However, they have distinct methods and cultures, which is more than enough to distinguish them.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:22PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
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Yeah, it would actually make more sense if Elves and Humans should be merged than Devils and Demons on D&D, even more because the diference between Demon and Devil is one of the few unique things on D&D that doesn't often happend on other Fantasy Settings
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:32PM
#5
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I'm in agreement with the other two, as I like the Devils as the scheming lawyerly jerks and the Demons as the craziy designed, diverse KILL KILL KILL monstrosities. What I really think needs to be done is to make the Daemons/Yuggoloths more distinct. Pathfinder did a great job at that by making them omnicidal maniacs, but maybe to avoid copying them Wizards could do the opposite and make them the bitter losers of the lower planes based o ntheir low popularity, only one step above Ghereleths in the hirearchy of fiends.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:33PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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-Devils are an evil Mafia.
-Demons are evil, sadistic, sociopaths.
-Daemons/Yugoloths are evil mercenaries.
This is of course a gross generalisation, you can easily find mass info online (google/wiki/planeswalker, etc).
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:38PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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I'm in agreement with the other two, as I like the Devils as the scheming lawyerly jerks and the Demons as the craziy designed, diverse KILL KILL KILL monstrosities. What I really think needs to be done is to make the Daemons/Yuggoloths more distinct. Pathfinder did a great job at that by making them omnicidal maniacs, but maybe to avoid copying them Wizards could do the opposite and make them the bitter losers of the lower planes based o ntheir low popularity, only one step above Ghereleths in the hirearchy of fiends.
Wizards already did this in 4E. It was one of the things they talked about before the game even released, when they talked about why certain monsters were reclassified in the other camp (like the succubus becoming a devil).
Devils are about subversion. They have strength, yes, but they rely on subterfuge, guile and whispered promises in their dealings with mortals. Demons, on the other hand, are pure engines of chaos and destruction, and they take delight in that act. Where the devils corrupt, the demons destroy. Demons are the physical embodiment of entropy.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:44PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Wizards already did this in 4E. It was one of the things they talked about before the game even released, when they talked about why certain monsters were reclassified in the other camp (like the succubus becoming a devil).
Devils are about subversion. They have strength, yes, but they rely on subterfuge, guile and whispered promises in their dealings with mortals. Demons, on the other hand, are pure engines of chaos and destruction, and they take delight in that act. Where the devils corrupt, the demons destroy. Demons are the physical embodiment of entropy.
It's a bit subtler than that; just seems, at least initially, the 4th Ed team couldn't get their head around it/were not into it or what-have-you, so they changed the whole deal; here's hoping succubus are demons again (Malcanthet and her layer of the Abyss).
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:54PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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It's a bit subtler than that; just seems, at least initially, the 4th Ed team couldn't get their head around it/were not into it or what-have-you, so they changed the whole deal; here's hoping succubus are demons again (Malcanthet and her layer of the Abyss).
Malcanthet could easily be the same as Graz'zt: a devil that "switches sides" and becomes a demon lord. I always figured Glasya was pretty much a succubus, anyway. Fierna, too, even if she lacked wings. I just think they fit more as infernal types than demons.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:55PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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Merging demons and devils would have some implications for the cosmology of the planes. The whole notion that the outer planes are expressions of alignment sorta requires you have pretty strong differences between chaotic denizens of the abyss and lawful baator dwellers. And then there's the whole war they fight and all that fun stuff. I dunno, just 'cause alignment in its absolute sense might be too much of a caricature for a real person doesn't mean that those absolute expressions don't provide depth and flavour to the game. Monsters don't need to have deep personalities, but strong archetypal divisions are essential and alignment provides us with that. Keep demons and devils seperate, please.
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